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Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 10:06 am
LOL----If Dys says white is black then you all apoligize for him.

I say Dys says white is black then I"m wrong---see what I mean about Librul logic???????
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 10:31 am
To the intelligent man or woman, life appears infinitely mysterious. But the stupid have an answer for every question. Edward Abbey
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 10:38 am
C'mon "fiat lux" you're supposed to be intelligent----why do you resort to quotes from someone else. I want to hear it from you.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 11:29 am
Perc,

I wrote to you:

Quote:
Perc,

It does seem that you're assuming Dyslexia's intentions about what he meant by what he said rather than asking him what he meant. If his meaning is unclear to you, I think it's better to ask first. Dependency on unfounded assumptions creates confusion. What is it that you feel is so disreputable in Dys' stated opinion that you would liken him to the Oklahoma bomber and murders? He hasn't mentioned murder.



And then you responded to me:

Quote:
Lola

It would seem from what you say that I have no right to derive a conclusion from what Dys says is an opinion to be his actual belief.


I didn't say that you don't have a right. You're putting words in my mouth. I was simply appealing to your ability to reason logically. I said that I think it's best to ask before developing arguments based on unconfirmed assumptions. You have every right to derive any conclusion that occurs to you. Of course. I'm questioning the validity of your conclusion when it appears to me you've drawn it based on unconfirmed data. You say above that you've based your conclusion on "his actual belief." But I don't think you've clarified with him if what you believe to be his belief, is actually what he said or intended to say. I read what Dys said differently than you do. I'm simply appealling to you to sit down and notice where the misunderstandings may be here. You seem to believe that we're not listening to you. But I'm inviting you to tell us what you mean, to clarify so we can determine if there's a misunderstanding or if we're scapegoating you as you seem to suggest.

Trying again:

Dyslexia wrote:

Quote:
. . . To be aware that we all live with the inescapable likelihood of evil is to be aware that the goal of elimination of evil in others is the very impulse of evil itself and, therefore its own contradiction. I can, at best, and paradoxically, attempt to recognize in myself the evil that takes the form of attempting to eliminate evil elsewhere. A common usuage of patriotism is the elimination of other voices to be heard but in doing so, eliminates all voices.



And you responded:

Quote:
Dys espouses that ALL patriotism is evil---my logic says that in order to get rid of the EVIL in patriotism you must kill all patriots. He also espouses anarchy which means that you first must destroy the gov't in power before he can advance on to his idea of a perfect gov't . . .


I don't think your conclusions here follow what Dys said. As you identify above, it's your logic that says the evil in patriotism can only be managed by killing all patriots. It's not what Dys said. And it's not implied by what he said, as far as I can determine. I think Dys is saying the opposite. We must accept the fact that we all are subject to evil intent. It's up to us to manage this tendency in ourselves. I think you're putting words in Dys' mouth. And if you'll take a minute, you may be able to see it too.

And I don't see Dys espousing anarchy, unless you consider all post-modern beliefs to be equal to anarchy. If you do, then I can see why you're upset. It's just that many of us don't agree with you on this. That's all. We're not picking on you.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 11:56 am
Diane,

That's a very good link. Thanks. I especially like the following quotation"

Quote:
"The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one's country deep enough to call her to a higher standard."
--George McGovern


dlowan,

You wrote:

Quote:
Ok - how do we love a country? Now - landscape I understand - but a country? Do people espouse to love a sort of Platonic ideal of their country, or their actual nuts and bolts neighbours, the fella who farts in the lift, the back alley where the cats piss, the local sewerage farm, the Empire State Building, the Metropolitan Museum of Art?


This is a thought provoking question. I think the above quotation by George McGovern is what I mean by patriotism. Love of country includes many things, including a love of past experience in one's home, one's hopes and dreams for the potential for one's country, etc. It only includes wonderful landmarks and institutions like the MOMA or the World Trade Center because they represent an idea we may have about the hopes and love we feel. I agree with Sofia. There are many things to love about the USA, as I'm sure there are many things to love in other freedom loving countries. I love the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, freedom of speech, and many of the other foundations in our Democracy. But I have no illusion that our country and the principles I hold dear is safe from those who seek to change those aspects which make this country great. The question here really is, "who is the enemy, who are those who want to take away those aspects of our country which make it great?" In my opinion, at this time, the enemy is the leaders currently in power. If we want to be patriotic, we should be fighting them with every tool we have available in a free society. To me patriotism doesn't mean we have to put down others in order to love ourselves. We can love our country and others as well. To me it's not the patriotism that's the problem but rather what George Bush thinks patriots should be doing. Patriots in this country should be fighting Bush. IMHO. It's Bush's misuse of patriotism that bothers me.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 12:06 pm
perception wrote:
perception wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Wth sincere regards to deb the dlowan, i offer an opinion. Patriotism, that is the desire to protect the power in a society by way of increasing the power of a society, is inherently belligerent. Since there can be no awards of accomplishment without opponents, patriots must create enemies before we can require protection from them. Patriots can ony flourish where boundries are well-defined, hostile and dangerous. The spirit of patriotism is therefore characterisacally associated with the military or other modes of international conflcit. Because patriotism is always the desire to contain others outside its purvue it is always evil in its intent. Wanting the best outcome for your family, your neighborhood, your communityis very positive in a sense of patroitism, but needing that by diminishing others is offensive.


Dyslexia offered the above as an opinion but without regard for the feelings of anyone reading it who might take offense at such as this:

Because patriotism is ALWAYS the desire to contain others outside it's purvue it is ALWAYS EVIL in it's intent. This is a damn insult and anyone here who doesn't take offense would willingly let anyone put chains on them.

That inclues you specifically BBB


Dys
I refer you to your original episal and my response----If you wish to retract this extremist view then do so in public


In his original opinion above he said: BECAUSE PATRIOTISM IS ALWAYS THE DESIRE TO CONTAIN OTHERS OUTSIDE IT'S PURVUE IT IS ALWAYS EVIL.

Now Lola please tell me what this means to you.

Dys has also said that being a non-conformist(which is what he is) then anarchy is the only alternative. And he says this just as self righteously as Jerry Fallwell every said anything.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 03:27 pm
...mornin' all....
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 03:42 pm
Dys wrote:

Quote:
Wth sincere regards to deb the dlowan, i offer an opinion. Patriotism, that is the desire to protect the power in a society by way of increasing the power of a society, is inherently belligerent. Since there can be no awards of accomplishment without opponents, patriots must create enemies before we can require protection from them. Patriots can ony flourish where boundries are well-defined, hostile and dangerous. The spirit of patriotism is therefore characterisacally associated with the military or other modes of international conflcit. Because patriotism is always the desire to contain others outside its purvue it is always evil in its intent. Wanting the best outcome for your family, your neighborhood, your community is very positive in a sense of patroitism, but needing that by diminishing others is offensive.


Perc,

I can see that the sentence you quote in caps does exist in Dys's post above. But I think you've misread it. Taken out of the paragraph and isolated, that sentence appears to mean something other than what Dys meant, as I read it. In the post quoted above, the sentence reads:

Quote:
Patriotism, that is the desire to protect the power in a society by way of increasing the power of a society, is inherently belligerent.
(Please notice the placement of the commas.)

But I read this to mean (because of the placement of the commas), that the type of patriotism that is used as a desire to protect the power in a society by way of increasing the power of a society, is inherently belligerent. And that the sentence you quote in caps must be taken in context of this sentence and the one following it.

Besides, Perc, I think we have to take Dys at his word.

BBB wrote:

Quote:
Lola, I think Dys's statement has been distorted by Perception. I know Dys will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Dys meant the abuse of others via patriotism is what is evil, not benign patriotism itself. BBB


and Dys replied:

Quote:
exactly


I think this meaning is quite different from the one you understood. See what you think.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 03:44 pm
good morning, dlowan. Happy Wednesday.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 03:56 pm
It seems that I have been outed, Perception has nailed it and i plead quilty to being a non-conformist. The evidence is clear having been born a blue-eyed blond in a small town in southern colorado, competed my high school education, enlisted in the US armed forces, used the G.I. bill to get a college education, spend a career as a social worker in mental health and as a child protection worker, married/divorced and now living with a nun gone bad. And yes i have smoked pot, drank whisky, had recreational sex. I love billiards, camping/hiking and photography. Usually vote democrat but have voted Green and Libertarian depending on the issues. I have never advocated the overthrow of the government, i have been arrested 3 times, once for sledding down mainstreet (reckless endangerment) once for driving a VW painted red/white/blue (defamation of the flag) and the final time in a small southern town for riding in a car with a "negro" after dark. zero convictions. My hair is too long, a have a full beard, I am overly tall and underweight and to absolutely prove my non-conformity I often wear leggings. So Perception suggesting that i avocate the killing of 150 million armerican patriots and equating me with Hitler and Stalin is quite a reach, even for you.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:00 pm
Lola;

Laughing Have you ever considered becoming a Defense attorney? You certainly have done a wonderful job for Dys--I'm completely isolated here even though I'm correct---let's move on.


Even though I consider George McGovern the worst sort of appeasing liberal wimp----his definition of Patriotism works for me. Twisted Evil

BTW Lola---the next time I get my ideas all twisted around my tongue can I depend on you to explain what I actually mean to the circling sharks.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:10 pm
Perception - (yawning blearily, having been woken by construction work next door) - how are you right in constructing a "he said he wants to kill people" fantasy from Dys's words?

I can see some logical inconsistencies from one long post of Dys's to another - but Rambo fantasies? Hello!
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:14 pm
Another general question - what do people mean by "love" when they speak of loving their country?


Gadfly question: Does this love stop at the borders? Is one bit of earth beloved, and the other bit, a mere step away (for those of you living with the oddity of land borders - LOL!) not? Do you love a fly from next door when it flies over your border - and cease to love it when it flies back?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:15 pm
Goddammit Dys! With the leggings you have GONE TOO FAR!!!! You are clearly a dangerous lunatic....
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:33 pm
I give up---what ever you libruls, ozzies and nonconformists say----now you want to talk about love? Bye-Bye it's about time for O'Reilly Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:44 pm
I'll give it my best, Perc......now come on back here. Don't spend so much time with that grumpy ole O'Reilly guy. We know you know about love. :wink:
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 04:48 pm
Oh my gawd!
Oh, my gawd! To think I had dinner with that dangerous anarchist when I should have known better the minute I laid eyes on his leggings. When will I ever learn to recognize someone who is a danger to the earth's entire population. How could I be so careless and irresponsible when I should have asked Perception for clues so I could protect us all.

Whack me on the side of my dumb head. Whew! that was a close call for humanity!

And, Hampster, keep your mitts off my rant! :wink:

BBB
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:13 pm
Deb, I think Ricardo_Tizon said something about tearing up at the Olympics one year while listening to our anthem, feeling a sense of pride for the winning U.S. team. I think most of us can identify with that emotion. I have also felt a little weepy at hearing the anthem of another country, when that athlete did a spectacular job in winning the event.

In both cases a feeling of love of one's country was experienced, but it was also possible to feel a kind of love for someone from another country who has shown exceptional skill, courage and good sportsmanship.

Perc, I can vouch for the fact that Dys is a nonconformist, but I don't see how you can make most of the statements and you have made about him, by reading his posts objectively--without interjecting your own interpretations.

His politics are liberal, in the best sense of the word, his looks are outside the average person's; he also happens to be terrific in bed Laughing , but those things don't make him a danger to society. He conforms to the law and is an excellent, law-abiding, citizen.

You continually call him an anarchist. You will not find any post by Dys in which he identifies himself as an anarchist. He has said that anarchy is the only recourse when a government has become tyrannical, but he never said that he wants to overthrow the United States government--he just wants to oust Bush in the next election.

He is a gentle, thoughtful man. I, on the other hand, can be downright nasty. That is why I generally refrain from posting on these threads--I have a very difficult time forcing myself to abstain from making insulting, if accurate, statements about those who seem to enjoy picking on others; taking their statements out of context, without regard to what they are actually saying. That kind of intellectual laziness is something I, personally, abhor and it certainly has no place in an honest discussion between people with opposing viewpoints.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:27 pm
Diane
Diane, I don't give a fig what Perception thinks of Dyslexia. He's never met him. But I can tell you that Dys is much more dangerous than even Perception imagines. How do I know that? His parrott, Fred, told me and you know parrotts never lie, especially to Bumble Bees.

BBB
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:32 pm
Diane! Stop that bragging! Laughing

The rest of us are eating our hearts out. :wink:
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