18
   

Who Blew It? President Obama, Professor Gates or Sgt. Crowley

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 11:50 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I am figuring that Gates will not be conciliatory,
Gates has already said that he is going to this beer fest expecting that SOMEONE will apologize to him .........
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:00 am
@hawkeye10,
I didn't know that (I've miss the last bunch of hours) but I think that is a function of his being ... not cocooned, as he hasn't been, but he has been apparently not subjected to the usual shitteroo, in that he has been a good person in coveted circumstances. Not that he hasn't gone through some of this stuff, but not routine police up against the walls. I'm aware he's a revered historian, but I don't think he's used to an ordinary police voice, especially when tired.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:03 am
@ossobuco,
I admit I don't know Gates' life, that was a conjecture.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:15 am
@ossobuco,
I'll also still land on I don't get him being taken away, away, in any legal move.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:18 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Gates suggested to the New York Times' Maureen Dowd that he expects an apology from Crowley in their meeting with the president.

"It's clearly not going to be like Judge Joe Brown, OK? 'You tell your side, you tell your side.' We have to agree to disagree. But I would be surprised if somebody didn't say, 'I'm sorry you were arrested,'" Gates told Dowd.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=8181257&page=2
June 27, 2009
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:30 am
@hawkeye10,
That's not a surprise. He was apparently very reactive (though I don't know that for sure yet). It may be a surprise re his writings. Let's say he has reason to be primed by his knowledge.
I'm not sure his knowledge has been all that personally experiencial (and not for me to even guess) relative to others re trauma, but he can have fear from all he knows.

Seems quite a mess to me.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:52 am
@ossobuco,
I dunno, unless Obama rassles them for hours on end, that there can be any use from this - I think the glib though understandable invite will molt.
0 Replies
 
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 01:10 am
This whole situation is a prime example of how America has become a police state.

Crowley thinks that he has more power than our president.,
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 06:13 am
@Sglass,
Police sent out of investigate a breaking and entering matter, equates to America as a Police State?

A citizen failing to follow a police officers instructions, becomes belligerent towards the officer, and you consider this a form of Police State?

You are a sick individual and you need therapy.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 08:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

I can't know exactly what happened on the scene, but Gates looks in a rage even in the photo of him being led off in handcuffs. The police were summoned and had to make some kind of sense of the situation. When the police try to identify and question someone who flies into a rage and refuses even to provide identification, isn't it perfectly normal for them to arrest him? Should he get a pass where another person would be arrested because he's black, or because he has a prestigious job, or should he be treated like any other hostile, aggressive, uncooperative person who yells and refuses reasonable requests?


On the contrary; according to both Gates' report and the police report, Gates did provide ID upon request. The officer, however, did not comply with MA law and provide his identification upon request.

Cycloptichorn

What may have happened is that Gates originally refused to show ID but later did. If it is true that Gates immediately became very belligerent and refused to comply with reasonable requests, then arresting him for disorderly conduct would seem like a common police reaction.


You are simply incorrect, Brandon. Why don't you try reading the actual documentation?

Here is a summary Gawker put together based on the two reports the men gave and two interviews the men gave - this is just an excerpt -

http://gawker.com/5321278/no-henry-louis-gates-is-not-a-railer-a-brawler-or-a-common-street-walker?skyline=true&s=x....
Cycloptichorn


The account in the Wikipedia says that according to the police report, Gates initially refused to provide ID, as I had suggested:


Quote:
According to the police report, the officer asked Gates to step outside, and he refused, saying "Why, because I'm a black man in America?" and "I'll speak with your mama outside".[14] The police also said that Gates initially refused to provide ID, ultimately showing his Harvard ID. The officer wrote in the police report "Gates continued to yell at me, accusing me of racial bias and continued to tell me that I had not heard the last of him".

According to Gates's version of events, when the officer asked for ID, Gates replied he had to get it inside, and then officer Crowley followed him into his home without permission.[16] After providing both his Harvard ID and his driver's license, each of which having a photo and the latter showing his home address to be the home in which they were standing,[17]Gates repeatedly asked the officer for his name and badge number, which the officer would not provide, instead telling Gates to step outside his home. Gates said that after handing over the two sets of ID, he followed the officer (Crowley) from inside his house onto his front porch, where the officer was able to arrest him for "disorderly conduct" in public. Gates has also denied that he made a reference to the officer's "mama", saying "Does it sound logical that I would talk about the mother of a big white guy with a gun?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Henry_Louis_Gates
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 10:04 am
@Brandon9000,
There is no meaningful accusation by either party that Gates refused to show ID. The police report states that 'Gates initially refused, demanding that I show him identification.' That isn't refusing to show your ID to a cop, it's refusing to show your ID to a random person who has shown up at your door. Nevertheless, Gates did produce his ID in a timely fashion, there is no disagreement about this.

Do you agree that MA state law requires a cop to present identification when requested, Brandon? And that the cop failed to do so?

Cycloptichorn
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You are wrong again.

The officer's badge and name were visible and according to the Officers statement, he identified himself twice. However, Mr. Gates was too busy spewing his venom to actually hear the Officer ID himself.

Stop trying to defend the one guilty of escalating this matter.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:10 pm
@Yankee,
Yankee wrote:

You are wrong again.

The officer's badge and name were visible and according to the Officers statement, he identified himself twice.


Sorry, but that's not good enough, according to the law. MA law requires the officer to provide an identification card and both a first and last name. Identifying yourself as 'sgt. Crowley' and failing to display identification are not sufficient.

Badges are available at many costume shops and it is impossible for the average person to determine at a casual glance which are real and which are fake. A badge is not an identifier of a police officer.

Quote:
However, Mr. Gates was too busy spewing his venom to actually hear the Officer ID himself.

Stop trying to defend the one guilty of escalating this matter.


Stop acting like you know the law - you don't. The officer did not comply with the laws which grant him the power to pursue his profession, which is a real problem. Gates, on the other hand, violated no law whatsoever.

Cycloptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:14 pm
There's a transcript of the 911 call here:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272009/news/nationalnews/transcript_of_gates_911_call_181639.htm

The caller denies indicating the race of the two individuals. I am confused as to why any of that matters. From my experience, cops don't like to be disrespected and will usually abuse their power in order to show you who's boss if you do so. This looks like just such a case. Unfortunately for said cops, telling one to **** himself is not actually against the law.

From my perspective, once the id was provided and it was obvious the man lived in the home he should have left. Period. End of story.
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Stop acting like you know the law - you don't.


Stop acting like you know the facts. You are blindly supporting the person who instigated the police action.

If Gates kept his mouth shut and followed instructions, this would be a non event.

The "Professor" is NOT setting a good example for his students.
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Facts............

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2009/07/26/nr.comrade.in.arms.cnn
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:51 pm
@FreeDuck,
If you listen to the 911 call, the caller sounded reasonable, the dispatcher sounded like a total jerk. The key point is that the policeman should have known that citizens are allowed to raise their voices at police. I can sympathize with the policeman trying to do his job, but he could have easily said "sorry sir" when he saw Gates's ID and walked away, even with Gates yelling at his back. The decision to arrest someone who is giving you grief was a flawed one. Was it racially motivated? I doubt it. Was the original phone call racially motivated? Not by the sound of it, but the original caller was relaying someone else's complaint, so maybe. Is this a "teachable moment"? Absolutely.
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:53 pm
@engineer,
Teachable? Yes for Mr. Gates to learn how to act as a member of the civilized world.

I wonder what someone with a PHD sounds like when they say.."I'll talk to your momma outside!"
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:54 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Is this a "teachable moment"? Absolutely.

Will some people learn anything from it?

Of course not.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:56 pm
@Yankee,
Sorry Yankee,

In the civilized world we call the USA, citizens are not required to provide their documents to police that show up at the door, no matter WHY the police arrived.

Yes, he could have done so willingly but he was not required to do so by the law or the civilized world.
0 Replies
 
 

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