are "time-out" rooms in schools abuse?

I don't think anyone of good faith is suggesting that these children be abandoned.

The issue, as I see it, is whether the best interests of these kids are formulating policy as opposed to an understandable, but not necessarily societal responsible, desire to secure the latest "best" attention for their children with special needs or (what is infinitely worse) the desire of Progressive academics to always be on the cutting edge of the latest sociological fad.

I don't blame the parents who are furiously advocating for their children; in fact I admire them. However, because they are driven by fiercely protective love doesn't make their choices right or their demands legitimate.

The so-called experts are the ones I blame. They are the ones who we should be able to rely upon to formulate policy that is founded on the best interests of these children and not their personal politics or desire to be seen as "relevant."

Admittedly, I’ve not spent my life in the environs of Academia, but I feel certain that the dynamics I've seen in the world of Business operate universally.

No one, with any verve and new to any field wants to be seen as simply maintaining the truths fashioned before his or her entry. They all want to make their mark; to fashion new truths, new answers.

A very rare few truly do reveal new knowledge, but the vast majority of these eager beavers are left to recycle old ideas as new ones:

"Retarded" kids receiving isolated and "special" attention led to "Special" kids receiving isolated and "special" attention, which led to "Learning Disabled" kids being mainstreamed, which has led to kids with "Special Needs" receiving isolated and "special" attention.

When one's acceptance within an academic-political class is as or more important than the truth or real solutions, how can we expect problems to be solved?

It's tough, as well, to blame the teachers who are on the front lines. They are the technicians. A rare few might be able to actually advance a new approach, but most of them look to the academics to tell them the best way to address the needs of their wards.

(Of course, the number of teachers at any level who actually care is no greater than the number of assembly line manufactures of Toyotas who actually care)



Absolutely.

If you think something is wrong you should work to correct it, but thinking something is wrong implies absolutism, and that is not where our post-modern world wants to be.

Post-modernism: Nothing is wrong because nothing is right; it's all relative. There is value to each any every approach (unless of course it happens to have been initiated by the Bush Administration), because who are we to pass judgment on anyone or anything? None of us can know everything, and therefore none of us are equipped to judge.

A 16 year old girl gives birth to a baby she has been hiding from her parents for 9 months, and then leaves the infant, wrapped in paper towels, to perish in a waste basket.

How can we judge this poor girl? Did we ever experience the emotional torment she has?

Intellectually enticing; emotionally satisfying, but socially destructive.

A healthy and functioning society requires absolutes.

If nothing is all wrong, everything is alright.

It makes little difference whether any of us can reconcile this fundamental principle while sipping brandy or smoking a joint in our study.

The people who rape and pillage fashion reality, not those that pontificate about a utopian world.

What is this (post-modernism)? The new buzz word or something? I keep seeing that term all over this forum.
Well, I aint buyin' it (either ).
( I understand that you're communicating your dissatisfaction with it - not endorsing it).
We're all quick enough to judge when it directly affects us or our own children. It seems that the only time we can all adopt a complacent, 'Well that's just the way it is,' attitude is when it's someone else's child who isn't getting what they need.


No, not literally or intentionally maybe- but when we direct or funnel the best resources to other populations, these are the kids who are left with the dregs. But that's nothing new - it's always been thus, hasn't it?
And maybe sometimes it's justified - I can admit that. It IS beneficial and practical and more productive for a society to focus on and develop what are its strengths.
But let's call a spade a spade and stop pretending that we care as much about these vulnerable populations as we care about anyone else.
Our treatment and care of them just does not bear that out as a societal truth.


Well sometimes you have to 'see' something in action before you can 'believe' it.

Maybe that's why all this post-modernism crap is spreading like wildfire.



Most have given up any hope of that. Most teachers I know look at the academics trying to tell them how to do what they themselves have never actually 'done' (just studied) with very little faith. It's like someone telling you to read a book to figure out how to deal with your own specific set of circumstances on an every day basis. Experience is the best teacher.


But that's leaving out that vast middle ground where there's room for observation, practical problem solving, and constructive action. And I see a lot of people working in schools in that vein. I haven't given up hope on those efforts yet.

I just read this essay Asherman wrote on 'the other' on this forum (it was in reference to racism- but I think it applies here as well).

What is this (post-modernism)? The new buzz word or something? I keep seeing that term all over this forum.
Well, I aint buyin' it (either ).
( I understand that you're communicating your dissatisfaction with it - not endorsing it).
We're all quick enough to judge when it directly affects us or our own children. It seems that the only time we can all adopt a complacent, 'Well that's just the way it is,' attitude is when it's someone else's child who isn't getting what they need.


No, not literally or intentionally maybe- but when we direct or funnel the best resources to other populations, these are the kids who are left with the dregs. But that's nothing new - it's always been thus, hasn't it?
And maybe sometimes it's justified - I can admit that. It IS beneficial and practical and more productive for a society to focus on and develop what are its strengths.
But let's call a spade a spade and stop pretending that we care as much about these vulnerable populations as we care about anyone else.
Our treatment and care of them just does not bear that out as a societal truth.


Well sometimes you have to 'see' something in action before you can 'believe' it.

Maybe that's why all this post-modernism crap is spreading like wildfire.



Most have given up any hope of that. Most teachers I know look at the academics trying to tell them how to do what they themselves have never actually 'done' (just studied) with very little faith. It's like someone telling you to read a book to figure out how to deal with your own specific set of circumstances on an every day basis. Experience is the best teacher.


But that's leaving out that vast middle ground where there's room for observation, practical problem solving, and constructive action. And I see a lot of people working in schools in that vein. I haven't given up hope on those efforts yet.

Finn wrote:

A very rare few truly do reveal new knowledge, but the vast majority of these eager beavers are left to recycle old ideas as new ones:

"Retarded" kids receiving isolated and "special" attention led to "Special" kids receiving isolated and "special" attention, which led to "Learning Disabled" kids being mainstreamed, which has led to kids with "Special Needs" receiving isolated and "special" attention.

***************************************************************

The vast majority of teachers do not believe that "mainstreaming" rebounds to the good of the majority of children.

We cannot, because of our principles, fail to exert every effort to do the most we can for children who are or were considered LD.

So we mainstreamed.

This is tantamount to placing a person with a virulent infection among patients who need minimal orthopedic care.

All children have a right to the best schooling we can give them, however, when a teacher must give an excessive slice of her vary precious time to special students, the other 24 students in the room are shorted. I can say without fear of contradiction that in the school system where I supervised classes, there were NO teachers with children in their classes which were mainstreamed who were able to fill the needs of the mainstreamed children while they did the same for the rest of their class.

Torture in America's Schools
And silence from the be-kind-to-KSM crowd.
By JAMES TARANTO
Last month the Government Accountability Office issued a shocking report on "selected cases of death and abuse"--not at Guantanamo Bay or other detention facilities for terrorists, but at schools for American children:
GAO also examined the details of 10 restraint and seclusion cases in which there was a criminal conviction, a finding of civil or administrative liability, or a large financial settlement. The cases share the following common themes: they involved children with disabilities who were restrained and secluded, often in cases where they were not physically aggressive and their parents did not give consent; restraints that block air to the lungs can be deadly; teachers and staff in the cases were often not trained on the use of seclusions and restraints; and teachers and staff from at least 5 of the 10 cases continue to be employed as educators.
The 10 cases involved children ranging in age from 4 to 14, and eight of the cases occurred at government schools. Here is just a sample:
At a public school in West Virginia, a 4-year-old girl with cerebral palsy and autism "was 'uncooperative,' so teachers restrained her in a chair with multiple leather straps that resembled a 'miniature electric chair.' " The girl was later diagnosed with posttraumatic stress disorder. "At least one of the three teachers responsible" is still at the school.
At a Texas public school, a 230-pound "special education teacher" placed a 129-pound boy of 14 "into a prone restraint and lay on top of him because he would not stay seated." The student died. The case was ruled a homicide but no charges were filed. The teacher "currently teaches in Virginia and is licensed to instruct children with disabilities."
In a California public school, the teacher of a 7-year-old autistic girl "secluded child in a walled off area because she refused to do work, sat on top of her because she was wiggling a loose tooth, and repeatedly restrained and abused her." The teacher "left the school but began teaching again in a different school district."
"GAO could not determine whether allegations were widespread," the report disclaims, but it makes clear they are more widespread than just the 10 cited cases:
GAO did find hundreds of cases of alleged abuse and death related to the use of these methods on school children during the past two decades. Examples of these cases include a 7 year old purportedly dying after being held face down for hours by school staff, 5 year olds allegedly being tied to chairs with bungee cords and duct tape by their teacher and suffering broken arms and bloody noses, and a 13 year old reportedly hanging himself in a seclusion room after prolonged confinement.
When the report came out on May 19, we figured it would be a good opportunity to find common ground with politicians and commentators who've been complaining for years about the "torture" of terrorists. We figured President Obama would issue an executive order banning torture in schools, the New York Times would publish an indignant editorial, Dick Durbin would take to the Senate floor to declare that the teachers unions remind him of the Gestapo, and that nut who writes for The Atlantic would proclaim himself "shocked to the core."
We were going to respond by saying that although we think there are circumstances under which it is justifiable to treat terrorists roughly, all good people can agree that torturing schoolchildren is categorically wrong. But we didn't have anything to respond to. As far as we are aware, the GAO's findings have been greeted with silence by the leading self-proclaimed "torture" opponents--though Education Secretary Arne Duncan did tepidly promise "he will ask state school chiefs around the country about the use of restraints and confinement of pupils in the classroom," according to the Associated Press.
Where's the outrage? Could it be that all the complaining about "torture" was but a pretext for some less noble agenda?

I think you know, Finn D" Abuzz, that the Teachers Unions gave Millions to BO during the Presidential Campaign and they doubtlessly turned out by the Millions to vote for him.

Anyone who knows about Education today in US Schools( As a person who taught four years in a ghetto school in a large American City, I claim to know a great deal about American Schools) is aware that the Teachers Unions are only matched in their venery and greed by the Teamsters. Teachers Unions are almost always coddled by the administrators of the cities in which they find themselves. The Unions have a large constituency. They influence legislators.

As a result, they come into negotiations in September with 240 or 250 or 280 DEMANDS. These demands are whittled down so that there are only thirty or forty left by the end of the year. These invariably touch on teachers pay and benefits. The demands left on the floor were demands which made the unions look good to the public---more care for the children--better curriculum--etc.

But, especially in large cities, there may be SOME rational for this apparently heartless approach.

Forty years ago, especially in large city school systems, the behavior and scholarship of children was much more attuned to the achievement of scholastic goals. Children were generally much better behaved and teachers were not constantly under the threat of law suits.

Now, the urban school systems are like jungles--They are filled with gang bangers, dope peddlers and students opposed to learning.
The cry--"Why do you want to study and act white" is heard over and over and dulls the chances of the occasional good student.

The most tragic part of all of this is that the children do not realize that they are committing occupational suicide. They are condemming themselves to a life time of very low status work or continual welfare.

The parents who are able to do so escape to school systems in which most of the pupils their offspring meet have the kind of goals which every parent approves of--more education for a better life.

Time out rooms have their time and places, but they aren't being used properly. I worked in a BD school with all BD kids. A time out room is intended to be a place to contain a physically abusive child where they can not do harm to others, or themselves. They are to be monitered at all times while in this setting. (If a door is closed a staff must be out side the door while another watches the moniter). The idea is to create an isolated setting, without really isolating the child. It works wonderfully when used to suite it's intended purpose (It's like putting your child in time out at home, and ignoring them. Think about how many times you've sent your children to their rooms.)

We run into problems when we have staff using them as a power-control manipulation. Telling the child they must compleate a ridiculous number of tasks to get out, or refusing to let them go to the bathroom when they are pleading to be allowed out to go. Staff are also putting student in there to isolate them, or get rid of them, when they really are not posing any threat to anyone.

It's hard to determine anymore what is alright and what isn't. What we end up with is a generation of children who don't know disipline and expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter at all times.

Once behaviors are learned they are difficult to change, especially when they are still working. If I child starts yelling, and learns "people give me their undivided attention when I yell", whenever they want that result, they will use that behavior. Trying to break it down and teach them to do something different is impossible if you don't replace it with another behavior that they can use to get the desired effect and it is consistant.

My point is that Time out rooms are not abuse when they are used for their intended purposes to protect the children. However they are abuse when people are putting them in their to "demand" a desired result. Like I said, behaviors take time to change.

I have been in special education since I was 10 years old. I have seen time out rooms that are basically 4 foot by 4 foot square and about 6 feet tall boxs without a door on them, just a opening where the door would be. If you stepped out the staff would push you back in. One time out room had several chairs facing a white brick wall with deviders seperating the chairs. One staff member actually lifted me off the floor and slammed me into the chair one time. Scared the living day lights out of me. Another room was 4 feet wide, 10 feet long with carpet on the floor and walls. There was no lights in the room. Just a small window at the back with a steel grate over it, and a steel door with no way to open it from the inside and also had a small window with a steel grate over it. When I was put in that room I would be held for 2-4 hours per time. If it was over lunch time, you missed your lunch for the day. You didn't get let out for a bathroom break. If you had to go while in there you either went on yourself or peed or messed on the floor which is what many kids did. I do see the good side of the rooms. Used short terms perhaps 10-15 minutes at a time. Not longer than that. And surely not till a child goes on themselves. The fact is that staff use the room as a way to show the child who is in charge. The childrens psychiatric hospital use "time out" rooms as well. My mom would frequently call them and tell the I was suicdal and tried to kill myself when I was a kid. She did it anytime I did something she didn't like. One time I was locked in the solitary room overnight from 7:30pm till 8:30am the next morning. They turned out the lights and left me in there. No food, water or restroom. I have extreamly bad PTSD because of abuse at both the so called "special education" school and the hospitals. I am terrified of the dark because of that night being locked in solitary overnight, and I am 28 years old now. I had a heated call at the hospital with my mom trying to find out why I was again sent there. They wanted me to cool off in time out. I just wanted to go lay in my bed. I was grabbed from behind and thrown to the floor. The staff member then put his knee into my spine and applied full body weight and cuased a spinal injury. Then I was locked in the solitary room for 8 hours for "going off". I take vicodine, methadone and a muscle relaxer for the pain. And the spinal injury caused me to become incontinent. I will be in diapers for the rest of my life because of a take down that went WAY too far. I have had a staff member remove his belt and hit me twice on the right leg and once on the left. Had my lunch taken and put on a file cabinet just out of reach so I could see and smell it as punishment for not doing flash cards. Nothing violent. I was told I had to write out of a dictonary for 2 hours before I could have my lunch. It went on for months. In school, I had a staff member push me back in my chair trying to grab a ink pen he swore I took from him. We both fell back breaking a table in half on the way down. I was then turned on my stomach and had my arms and legs spread out like I was flying. A control hold used in many special ed schools for children "going off". The staff member then put his elbow into my shoulder blade untill I was screaming in pain. 30 minutes later he stopped and let me up. On the way to rejoining class he told me "you do anything and I will slam your ass on the pavement, I don't care". When I reported the abuse, I was told I was lieing to get the staff member in trouble. It took a suicide attempt for my parents to believe me and make the abuse stop. You would be amazed what staff do to children. And because they are special education students, or trouble makers no one believes them when they report abuse. Not every staff member is abusive. But it seems the ones who run the "time out" rooms, or staff who are in charge of "taking down" students let the power and control go to their heads. I had many use excessive force to "teach me a lession" not to cross them again. I was scared of going to school, and scared of being sent to the hospital again. Most of my childhood was spent in fear and pain. Please ask questions at your kids school. If they use time out rooms, ask to see them yourself. The schools won't show you the time out rooms or even tell you they use them. You have to ask. If you don't want them used, say so. Make sure you child knows they are not supposed to be put in the time out rooms and tell them to tell you if they are. Please don't assume a report of being abused is just a lie to get someone in trouble, or a attempt to not have to go to school. It doesn't hurt to atleast check it out. It almost cost me my life to make the abuse stop. No child should have to turn to suicide to make abuse stop. Please protect your children.

-Stanley
[email protected]

Hello Stanley,

that was gut wrenching to read. I think prisoners have a better life than a kid
in special ed classes. I am so sorry you had to experience such pain at such a young age. You'll have the emotional and physical scars for a lifetime.
Why on earth your parents didn't stand up for you, is beyond me!