Are people who believe in God “weaker” than people who don’t?

I would like to add an analogy for you if you are of the firm opinion that you have the ability to fly like a bird jumping off a tall buiding take zero strenght of will after all you are just going flying.

And if you are of the firm opinion that once you fly that plane into a building or set off the bomb you are carrying you will find yourself in heaven with all your desires met for the rest of time what strength of character do you need?

Your analogy is about as idiotic as the rest of the drivel you post here. I was not speaking about massive self-delusion, i was talking about strength of character. This brain-dead thread only concerns itself with mental strength, it doesn't address the issue of whether or not someone is right or wrong in his or her beliefs. Your assumption about someone being willing to die in the belief that they'll awake in paradise surrounded by a crowd of seductive houris is about as stupid as the rest of what you habitually post. You can bet that Mohammed Atta and company were motivated by a sophisticated, even if deluded, notion of morality, justice and religious righteousness which had nothing to do with a notional gratification in an uncertain afterlife.

Name calling is about all you seem able to do.

Dying for one believes when those believes system includes that you will be taken care of in some afterlife heaven does not take anything at all of strenght of character. Of course that is assuming you are for real and 100 percent buying into the nonsense.

In fact if your was insame enought to buy into the nosense completely the logic would be that you would be looking for ways to end your life in a manner to achieve such graet rewards in heaven.

Mohammed Atta and company were motivated by a sophisticated, even if deluded, notion of morality, justice and religious righteousness which had nothing to do with a notional gratification in an uncertain afterlife.
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Uncertain uncertain how could it be any uncertain to them.

If their world view had any question about it then what justifaction could they come up with to kill innocent people in the name of that very believe system!

Sorry they was not brave men they was insane fools from an insane culture.

Lord I find it amuisng that they was brave men in your opinion because they did not in their true heart buy into the nonsense they die for!

So instead of being insane they was fools to die for something that they did not believe in.

How weak do you have to be to end your life due to group pressures and that is the only reason I can come up with for doing so it they was not true believers.

I didn't say they were brave men, and it is entirely possible that not all of the 19 knew they were on a one-way ride. We can only be certain that the pilots knew their ultimate, lethal destination. Neither did i say that they died for something they did not believe in. You're the one who trotted out the nonsense about going to paradise to be with the virgins. I'm not responsible either for the idiocy you indulge, nor what passes for logic at your house with regard to your witless fantasies. There is no reason to assume that they were not true believers just because they likely did not subscribe to the bullshit you're attempting to peddle.

The question was whether or not theists are "weaker" because of their theism and it was couched in terms of their intellect. I observed that for some people, their belief set makes them stronger, in terms of intellect and of resolve. That in now way authorizes the horseshit analogy you attempted to construct, both because of the shallow stupidity of your example, and because at no time did i state that all believers in any and all forms of theism derive strength from their beliefs.

Nothing obliges me to argue against your idiocy, and it is frankly embarrassing to me that i've wasted this much time in such a low-brow conversation with someone who knows so little about people and the world. I'm sure you think you've refuted what i said--but then, you also think all Muslims are motivated by a dream of limitless sex with virgins in the afterlife.

What nonsense about the virgins it is part of their faith in fact it is a long long standing part of their faith.

It been a long time since I read a book on Islam but I think I remember reading that this offer of sex in the after life as a reward go back to Mohammad and the founding of the faith.

I will google it and get back to you.

In any case yes it is silly howver most things about religions are silly.

Setanta most religions if not all are insane however you might take into account that one the leader of the 911 attack have a letter in his car and in his handwriting concerning the virgins/black-eyes he would be shortly meeting in heaven.


http://www.likud.nl/extr147.html

The answer, provided by the deputy director of Al-Azhar's Center for Islamic Studies, Sheikh Abd Al-Fattah Gam'an, read: "The Koran tells us that in Paradise believers get 'the black-eyed,' as Allah has said, 'And we will marry them to 'the black-eyed.' 'The black-eyed' are white and delicate, and the black of their eyes is blacker than black and the white [of their eyes] is whiter than white. To describe their beauty and their great number, the Koran says that they are 'like sapphire and pearls' (Al-Rahman 58) in their value, in their color, and in their purity. And it is said of them: '[They are] like well-protected pearls' in shells (Al-Waqi'a 23), that is, they are as pure as pearls in oysters and are not perforated, no hands have touched them, no dust or dirt adheres to them, and they are undamaged.'"
It is further said: "'They are like well-protected eggs' (Al-Safat 49), that is, their delicacy is as the delicacy of the membrane beneath the shell of an egg. Allah also said: 'The 'black-eyed' are confined to pavilions' (Al-Rahman 70), that is, they are hidden within, saved for their husbands."

"Most of 'the black-eyed' were first created in Paradise, but some of them are women [who came to Paradise] from this world, and are obedient Muslims who observe the words of Allah: 'We created them especially, and have made them virgins, loving, and equal in age.' This means that when the women of this world are old and worn out, Allah creates them [anew] after their old age into virgins who are amiable to their husbands; 'equal in age' means equal to one another in age. At the side of the Muslim in Paradise are his wives from this world, if they are among the dwellers in Paradise, along with 'the black-eyed' of Paradise."

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The suicide attackers who carried out the September 11 attacks also believed that 'the black-eyed' were one of the rewards awaiting them in Paradise. The letter of instructions found in Nawwaf Al-Hamzi's car mentioned 'the black-eyed' twice: "...Don't show signs of uneasiness and tension; be joyful and happy, set your mind at ease, and be confident and rest assured that you are carrying out an action that Allah likes and that pleases Him. Therefore, a day will come, Allah willing, that you will spend with 'the black-eyed' in Paradise... Know that the gardens [i.e. Paradise] have been decorated for you with the most beautiful ornaments and that 'the black-eyed' will call to you: 'Come, faithful of Allah," after having donned their finest garments."(25)
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In an interview with the Israeli daily Ha'aretz,(24) Sheikh Raid Salah, the leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, and the most important political and religious leader of Israel's Arab population was asked "Do 70 virgins await a shahid (a martyr) in paradise?"
Sheikh Salah replied: "On this matter, we have proof. It is written in the Koran and in the Sunna [the traditions about the life of Mohammed]. This matter is clear. The shahid receives from Allah six special things, including 70 virgins, no torment in the grave, and the choice of 70 members of his family and his confidants to enter paradise with him."

That's enough to give pause for thought virgins or no virgins.

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA41107


The distinction of martyrs, compared to other Muslims, lies primarily in the fact that they are guaranteed the privilege of Paradise: The act of falling in battle for the sake of Allah washes away every violation or sin they have committed during their lives. Moreover, the shahid enters Paradise right away, without enduring the "torments of the grave" ('adhab al-qabr), whereas an ordinary Muslim who does not have the privilege of dying as a martyr must wait for the Day of Judgment, and only then - providing he is sufficiently virtuous - do the gates of Paradise open before him.

The following excerpts show how pervasive is the belief in the pleasures that await the martyr in the world to come:

Al-Risala, the Hamas mouthpiece, published the last statement of Sa'id Al-Hutari, the terrorist who carried out the June 1, 2001 suicide bombing near the Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv. Al-Hutari says: "I shall turn my body into pieces and bombs that will pursue the sons of Zion, blow them up, and burn the remains [of their bodies]." Addressing his parents, he tells them not to weep over his death, saying, "There is nothing greater than to give one's soul for the sake of Allah on Palestinian soil. Mother, utter cries of joy; Father and brothers, hand out sweets. Your son is awaiting his betrothal to the virgins of Paradise." [8] Indeed, following the death of a shahid, the family does not erect a "mourners' tent," but holds a celebration similar to a wedding celebration: sweets are served and the mother of the "groom" utters cries of joy.

Reports in the Palestinian press likewise reflect the acceptance of these beliefs as a familiar and established reality. Journalist Nufuz Al-Bakri, for example, reported the death of the shahid Wael 'Awwad as follows: "The mother of Wael 'Awwad, from Dir Al-Balah, never planned to hold a second wedding for her eldest son, after he married his fiancée Miyada on August 10, 2001 in a simple ceremony attended only by the family. But Wael's real wedding day arrived yesterday, when the angels of [Allah] the Merciful married him, along with the [other] martyrs, to the black-eyed [virgins], while all around rose the cries of joy that his mother had dreamt of on the day of his wedding [to his fiancée]." [9]

Hamas official Ashraf Sawaftah told of a ceremony honoring 'Izz Al-Din Al-Masri, who carried out the suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizza parlor in central Jerusalem in August 2001: "His relatives handed out sweets. [They] received their son as a bridegroom who was being married to the black-eyed [virgins], not as one who had been killed and was being laid in the ground." [10]

The uncle of Nassim Abu 'Asi, who died in an attempted terrorist attack, said that whenever Nassim was asked why he was not married, he would always reply, "Why would I relinquish the black-eyed [virgins] to marry a woman of clay [i.e. of flesh and blood]?" [11]

Hamas leader 'Isma'il Abu Shanab once explained to a foreign reporter: "This is part of the Islamic belief. One who dies a martyr's death is rewarded [in Paradise]. If a shahid who died for the sake of Allah dreams of the black-eyed virgin, he receives her." [12]

The children in the Hamas education system are taught, beginning in kindergarten, that martyrs are rewarded with 72 virgins in Paradise. After touring Hamas schools in Gaza, Jack Kelley of the American daily USA Today wrote that, in one of the classes he visited, an 11-year-old was speaking before the class, saying: "I will turn my body into a bomb that will tear the flesh of the Zionists, the sons of apes and pigs… I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they could have ever imagined." The teacher responded by saying, "May the virgins give you pleasure!" A 16-year-old youth told Kelley that "most boys cannot stop thinking about the virgins of Paradise." [13]

The terrorists who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks also believed that the black-eyed virgins were among the rewards awaiting them in Paradise. A letter of instructions found in the vehicle of Nawaf al-Hazmi contained two mentions of the wide-eyed virgins: "...Do not show signs of discomfort of anxiety, be relaxed and happy. Rest assured that you are carrying out an operation that Allah desires and of which He approves. When the time comes, Allah willing, you will enjoy the virgins of Paradise... Know that Paradise has been bedecked with the finest decorations in anticipation of your coming, and that the black-eyed [virgins] are calling to you..." [14]

The chief mufti of the Palestinian Authority police, Sheikh 'Abd Al-Salam Abu Shukheydem, also mentioned the virgins as one of the rewards of the martyr: "From the moment he sheds the first drop of blood, he does not feel the pain of his wounds, and he is forgiven all his sins; he sees his seat in Paradise; he is spared the torment of the grave and the great horror of Judgment Day; he marries the black-eyed [virgins]; he vouches for 70 of his family members; he receives a crown of honor inlaid with a precious stone that is more valuable than this entire world and everything in it." [15] The phrase "he vouches for 70 of his family members" refers to another reward of the martyr, less known than the black-eyed virgins but nevertheless very significant: a shahid is allowed to bring 70 of his relatives into Paradise, by his own choice and recommendation. This exceptional privilege confers prestige on the shahid and special status on his family.

LOL.................

Once again, nothing obliges me to argue your witless case. Once again, i did not at any time say that all people of religious conviction draw strenght of mind from their religion. Once again, for whatever one may think of the conspirators in the September 11th attack, those who knew they were going to die certainly had to have strength of mind to go through with the attack. Despise them if you will, but i consider it unarguable that they were not "weakened" by their religious belief.

Faith driven the 911 attackers away from a normal useful life for themseleves and their loves ones into an act that was as insane as any act could be and that resulted in thousands of deaths.

What strength of mind is involved in doing an act no sane mind would dream of doing in the first place?

Sorry without the faith there would had been no reason to fly thoses planes into those buildings so it kind of pointless to me to state that their faiths strenghten them to do an act that would not had been done but for that very faith in the first place!

What if the shtick about going to Paradise,with a bunch of virgins,is just what westerners are being told, since the truth might be we are facing an enemy where many are willing to sacrifice their lives in order to further the cause of promulgating their way of life? If that is true, I do not believe that can be openly stated, since it is too blatantly adversarial for our politically correct society.

Perhaps these martyrs do believe that they will have given their respective families great prestige in this life. I have my doubts that all buy into the Paradise paradigm.

I think their faith was an excuse- not the reason or even A reason. These people used 'faith' as something to hide their true natures behind.
They were cruel and callous murderers who thirsted for retribution.

If they'd called themselves Christians instead of Muslims, they'd have been the type of Christians who carried out the inquistions.

Cruel and callous people hide behind a badge of faith all the time. That doesn't make them faithful - or strong.

This is a typical, and pathetic thread. Every so often, we have someone come along who attempts to suggest that religious believers are stupid, and stupid precisely because they are religious believers. Was Augustine of Hippo stupid? Was Pythagoras stupid? Was William of Occam stupid?

If atheists and agnostics want to make themselves feel better by proclaiming all religious people to be stupid, they may help themselves. And i, an atheist all my adult life, and a despiser of the very stupid people whom make a religion of their atheism, will always protest at the stupidity of this point of view.

Sorry but as the links that I had place here show it is a fact that the virgins are offer and indeed one of the rewards for killing westerns and muslins of the wrong fatih.

Good try but it is not a western dream it is a fact.

Stupid hell no however not completely sane hell yes.

To the point someone is giving more then lip service to his or her faith is to the point that he or she is not sane.

I don't think that atheists are smarter than theists, and vice verse, I watched the talk Andy Thomsom gave and just thought I'd share it here.

I have no reason to assume that intelligence can be inferred from theism, or the lack thereof.