36
   

Daylight Savings??? What a Crock!!!

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2017 07:18 am
http://i.imgur.com/9NPXI7l.jpg
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Mar, 2017 01:52 pm
@Ticomaya,
Yes, but if you don't protect your head it will fry your brain ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Mar, 2017 02:55 pm
@Ticomaya,
That reminds me of driving through both Navajo and Hopi areas in AZ ...
0 Replies
 
madscientist phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2018 09:16 am
To be fair I haven’t been aware it is such an issue and creates so much confusion in the world. As I’ve only lived in Europe (CET and WET) I cannot comment on the other time zones affected by this DST effect. I understand it is such an issue partly because it’s not global in observance, and many regions do it at their own at different times of the year Sad what a mess it must be!

I am a very frugal person and do love any savings (especially of food, fuel and energy) but that is not my argument – nowadays the difference is negligible, if any at all. Despite the negatives, I still see DST as a benefit, mainly because it gives us the “extra hour”, so to speak, of sunlight in the summer, which is the comes at a cost we pay for all this. Admittedly, some may argue this is purely due to my bias being located at the “beginning” i.e. eastern part of the time zone, (meaning early sunset, and also early sunrise thus no real long summer nights, which is, I believe, something we all like) and I do accept their point. Even now with DST in place, I personally would opt for the time zone to the east, as I do not believe sunset at half 8 is a long summer night at all! Consequently, sunrise at or before 4 is pretty useless, considering most people do not wake up until 6 or 7. This being said, canceling DST would mean end of longer summers. Comparably, sunset before 4pm in winter is also pretty depressing, due to restoration to “normal time”, whose duration in a year is, paradoxically, shorter than DST in this region. Canceling DST and keeping the usual zone would be no benefit for winter, however for summer period would mean darkness relatively very very early, and no benefit of having sunrise at around 3 am when most are sleeping! The compromise is something we have now, though in my opinion it is still biased towards being an early rise and thus an early snooze.
On the other hand I can also imagine those at the western extremities of a time zone (using CET as an example, France and especially Spain) already have enough long summers and do not need the extra hour in the evening. They may be the ones who are welcoming the idea of return to normal time, as darkness after 9 in the morning is not practical. No surprise then, people in countries like PL, CZ and SK are habituated to getting up early; schools start much earlier, shops open earlier than in countries in the western extremity of the time zone, such as FR, where the 9-19h is the more common time, or Spain, who are stereotyped for their supposed “late lunches and dinners”. The irony is that even within one time zone, each country or region adapts. Then, DST should not make much relative difference across regions which already have adapted – the issue rests with the one-hour-per-year shift to sacrifice losing this hour in early spring in order for a gain of “late summers”, and to gain it back in autumn to avoid “dark mornings”. A possible solution could be to split the zone into west and east, but it would result in messing up the convened times which have existed for so long.
Ideally speaking, we should be located and clocks adjusted so that we are able to make most of our daylight when up and active, but that is just impossible as we are all governed by “official clock time”. Fixed work times, transport schedules, office opening hours do not change suddenly per minute change caused by slight difference on the earth’s surface. Some may argue that we were designed to be awake during daylight and sleep at night, but given humanity is spread all over the globe where the extremities between day and night become more accentuated, this is just impossible… and we have learned to adapt (some more easily than others) to the seasons changing. Besides, spending half day sleeping is not really what we need as grown-ups, and with increasing age, time spent sleeping decreases.
If it were possible that regions which do not benefit so much – e.g. are closer to equator would not observe DST over time if no benefit seen, but others such as Europe do, I am in for such an agreement Smile
ekename
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2018 07:45 pm
@madscientist phil,
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  3  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2020 05:42 pm

https://i.imgur.com/xM8VjEl.jpg
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2022 03:45 pm

Senate passes bill that would make Daylight Saving Time permanent
(cnn)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2022 03:52 pm
@Region Philbis,
We're still one and a bit weeks away.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2022 04:10 pm
@Region Philbis,
A horrible idea, in my opinion. <ducking for cover>
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2022 10:20 pm
@hightor,
Best idea! Let it be daylight savings time all the time. Actually, we did vote for it here in California, but nothing happened. I hope it's a done deal once and for all!
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2022 03:54 am
@CalamityJane,
People in northern latitudes – above 40º– are much more affected by shortened hours of light in the winter. If you're on the extreme eastern edge of a timezone and want to have evening light this light is robbed from the light you would have received in the morning. Currently, during deep winter, the sun rises around 7 and sets around 4. All year-round DST would do is change the sunrise to 8 and sunset to 5. This means that kids wait for the school bus in the dark. Personally, I'm an early riser and like to get as much work done as early as possible during the day. I don't understand why setting and resetting the clocks twice a year is such an issue.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2022 03:59 am
We were on double BST during the war. Whenever we're about to go back to GMT and the subject of remaining on BST all year round comes up there is someone from the Highlands of Scotland complaining about how bloody dark it is with Greenwich.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2022 06:09 am
Daylight Saving Is a Trap

When people say they like the time change, what they really mean is that they like summer.

Quote:
This week, the “Sunshine Protection Act” passed the Senate. The bill, which would make daylight saving time permanent, is popular with the public; people hate switching their clocks back and forth. And who doesn’t like sunlight?

But daylight saving time isn’t good for us. It’s an artificial jump forward from standard time, which is more aligned with the path of the sun. (At noon during standard time, the sun is actually at its highest point in the sky.) Our bodies evolved, over millions of years, to be exquisitely attuned to the sun’s rhythm. When we wake and see sunlight in the morning, it trips off a cascade of chemicals in our brains that coordinate mental and physical health. Morning sunlight (even through the clouds on a winter day) is vital.

Shifting our clocks every March so that many of us have to wake up before sunrise takes a toll. We can move the hands on a clock, but we can’t fool the body. The shift raises stress levels and inflammation, shortens our sleep, and increases depression. In the week after daylight saving time begins, the incidence of heart attacks and strokes goes up significantly. A recent study found a 6 percent rise in fatal car crashes in that same period.

Daylight saving time is particularly dangerous for teenagers, who are already struggling to stay in sync with the sun. Teens have a natural delay in their biological clock. This phenomenon is seen across cultures—and even across species—and may be evolution’s way of giving teenagers more independence. Their melatonin—the drowsiness hormone—rises later in the evening, prompting them to go to sleep later and wake up later than the rest of us. Too-early high-school start times already make healthy sleep difficult for teens, given this natural delay. The darker it is in the morning and the sunnier it is later in the day, the harder it is for them to get to bed on time. The result is shortened sleep, an increase in accidents, and a higher risk of depression.

Modern-day adolescents are already the most sleep-deprived population in human history. By their senior year, high-school kids on average are getting six and a half hours a night, when they should be getting eight to 10. Teen sleep has been on the decline for decades, and now, one in five teens sleeps five or fewer hours a night. There is a notion that teenagers can get by skimping on sleep, but it turns out the opposite is true: Sleep becomes more vital in the teen years as kids go through drastic developmental changes in the brain and body.

A sleep-deprived brain is slower to react and makes more mistakes. It also skews toward sadness and anger. Recently, the surgeon general outlined his concerns over a growing mental-health crisis, citing higher levels of depression and anxiety among young people: “In 2019, one in three high school students and half of female students reported persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness”—an increase of 40 percent from 2009. The reasons for deteriorating mental health are complex, but sleep loss and a chronic struggle to stay in sync with daytime schedules are big factors. One study found that kids who were sleep-deprived were three times as likely to have symptoms of depression. A new study in the Journal of Adolescent Health finds that for kids ages 11 to 14, sleep was one of the top predictors of positive mood and protectors against anxiety and depression during the pandemic.

Daylight saving time is already unhealthy. You might have the sense that just adapting to it permanently would be better, because we would soon get over that immediate sense of jet lag, but that’s not the case. We’re unaligned with the sun all season long, even if most of us aren’t consciously bothered by it. The big reason daylight saving time never seems so bad is that the shift happens when the days are getting longer. When people say they like it, what they really mean is that they like summer.

But daylight saving does not actually add sunlight to the equation (despite what politicians are saying). If the House passes this bill and it becomes law, we’ll face very long, very dark mornings every winter. In some areas of the country—especially those in the westernmost part of each time zone—the sun won’t rise until 9. Teenagers will feel like they’re waking up for school in the middle of the night and will take calculus exams under fluorescent lights without ever seeing morning sun. They’ll miss most of their REM sleep, or dream sleep, which happens in the early-morning hours and is essential to mental health.

This is clearly a bad idea. So why is it happening, besides the appeal of the bill’s sunny name? Maybe influential business groups like the idea that, with an extra hour of evening sunlight, people will drive more and spend more. But what we actually need to do is sleep more.

If the bill does pass, we’ll need to protect teenagers. We could, for instance, move school-start times to 10—but just try bringing that up at your next school-board meeting. Fortunately, a much better solution exists, one that preserves morning sunlight in the winter without forcing us all to fiddle with our clocks twice a year. We could just do that once more this November, and then stick with standard time.

Standard time is nothing fancy; it’s just the natural way. Why not make it permanent instead? Our bodies already want to follow the sun. Our clocks should do the same.

[urlhttps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/daylight-saving-time-bad-teenagers/627095/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20220318&utm_term=The%20Atlantic%20Daily]atlantic[/url]
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2022 06:29 am
@hightor,
[url]Standard time is nothing fancy; it’s just the natural way. [/url]That certainly depends on where you live.

For example, here in Europe, Central European Time (CET) is solar time in eastern Germany and eastern Austria.
Central European Time (CET) is based on solar time at 15° eastern longitude. This longitude runs roughly parallel to the border between Germany and Poland. There, therefore, normal time - depending on the time of year - coincides fairly exactly with solar time, with the sun reaching its highest point at around 12 noon.

East of the longitude, for example in Vienna, the clocks lag behind the true local time by a few minutes. West of there, however, i.e. in large parts of Germany as well as in Switzerland and western areas of Austria, the clocks show a noticeably later time than that given by the course of the sun.

Quote:
people hate switching their clocks back and forth. And who doesn’t like sunlight?

However, the deviation becomes much more drastic during the summertime period. Then our clocks are oriented to solar time at 30° eastern longitude. This longitude crosses Ukraine and eastern Belarus, for example.

However, year-round daylight saving time would be particularly problematic during the winter months, as the sun rises late then anyway. In Berlin, sunrise at the end of December is currently at 8:17 a.m. CET - with daylight saving time, the sun would not appear until 9:17.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2022 06:32 am
Since I had to change quite a few clocks from Alpha to Zulu Time when I was in the navy (any time we were "at sea") I'm still kind of used to it.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2026 08:22 am

https://i.ibb.co/2YN1wkgL/capture.jpg
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2026 02:52 am
If there is only one reason to admire Arizona, it's the the way don't reset their clocks twice a year.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2026 03:49 am
@roger,
Besides within the Navajo Nation. And within there, without the Hopi Nation.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2026 04:16 am
We don't do daylight savings here.

This weekend we went from GMT (Greenwich Mean Time), to BST, (British Summer Time), by putting the clocks forward an hour.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2026 06:48 am
The ancient Roman alternative to daylight saving time

Quote:
At first it just appeared to be a plain block of carved stone.

The limestone lump was lying face-down in the mud at the site of an ancient Roman town in central Italy, and it was thoroughly stuck. It's thought that the block was stolen in the medieval era – plucked from the metropolis' antique remains and dragged away, possibly with the intention of using it as building material. But the mud had thwarted this attempt, and here it was, still in position, hundreds of years later.

It took a team of three people to prise the stone out, and as they did so, Alessandro Launaro yelped with delight. "The first thing I remember saying is 'Woah! Inscription!'", he says. The block had left behind an imprint of Latin letters and mysterious lines, pressed into its muddy grave like a stamp. "And that I found really puzzling," says Launaro, an associate professor of classics at the University of Cambridge.

Once the rock had been safely extracted from the ground, its purpose became clear: this was an ancient Roman sundial, one of many hundreds which have been discovered across the globe. After its peaceful sleep entombed in mud, it was exceptionally well-preserved – with lines that demarcated each passing hour, and an inscription crediting the official who paid for it. But perhaps the most exciting part was the way it demonstrated the ancient Roman solution to a perennial dilemma: how to make the most of the daylight available at different times of the year.

Twice a year, around a third of the world's countries perform a hotly-debated ritual: meddling with time to create longer summer evenings and brighter winter mornings. The US, the UK, and most of Europe implement Daylight Saving Time (DST), which involves pushing the clocks forward by an hour for the spring, then pulling them back by an hour to regular Standard Time in the autumn. But the ancient Romans had no such system – instead, they practised the long-forgotten art of seasonal hour-stretching.

Just like we do today, the ancient Romans divided up each day into 24 units – but for the vast majority of the year, they were not of equal length. All the daylight hours were divided by 12, all year round. This meant that at the peak of summer, when the Sun is up for longest, an hour took 75 minutes during the day, and just 45 minutes at night. In the middle of winter, meanwhile, when daylight was in shortest supply, the pattern was reversed – and during the day an hour occupied just 45 minutes.

"And then gradually between the summer solstice and the winter solstice, the length of those hours would change day by day, just a little bit each day," says James Ker, professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania. By the equinox – a moment that occurs twice a year, when the Sun is directly above the equator, and days and nights are roughly the same length – an hour was a familiar 60 minutes.

With this bold, time-bending system, the ancient Romans never wasted a single moment of daylight – if the Sun was up, it was officially daytime, and they would often be at work. If it was down, it was declared to be the evening – and time for a spot of leisure or sleeping.

Reading time, the ancient Roman way

Launaro's sundial, which was discovered at the site of the ancient Roman town of Interamna Lirenas in 2017, isn't quite like modern sundials. Instead of being flat and circular, it's shaped like half a bowl that's been split down the middle, with lines radiating out from the centre to the edge that divide it into 12 portions for the hours. The sundial's face is further subdivided by intersecting lines at the top, bottom, and middle of the bowl, which indicate the season – the winter solstice, the equinoxes, and the summer solstice.

At one time, a lead needle – known as a gnomon – would have cast a shadow of varying lengths depending on the height of the Sun, though this detail snapped off long ago. To read the sundial, you would simply check which segment the gnomon's shadow fell in, as you would with any modern version.

On the afternoon of 24 August AD79, when Mount Vesuvius began to erupt at the city of Pompeii, the 36 sundials eventually discovered in the wreckage would have been read using the outer ring of lines. And with longer gaps between the hourly demarcations further out from the sundial's centre, it would have taken longer for each hour to elapse. At this time of year, an hour would have taken around 70 minutes.

"So this concept of an hour for the Romans varies depending on the time of the year," says Launaro. "Even something as fundamental as timekeeping was quite different for them from the way we conceptualise it now," he says.

Though to modern ears, the ancient Romans' penchant for stretching and contracting the length of an hour might sound fiddly or even baffling, enacting it was easier than it sounds. That's because most of the time, people didn't attempt to keep track of the hour in their heads – sundials were ubiquitous.

These impressive objects were usually made of vast, hefty chunks of stone that remained in one place for their entire lifetime. They could come in quirky styles, such as the famous "pork clock", a prosciutto-themed sundial shaped like a cured ham, with a curly pig's tail instead of a needle to conduct the Sun's shadows and indicate the time.

Today there are up to 600 surviving ancient Greek and Roman sundials, 99% of which adhered to this seasonal system of timekeeping – which was invented by the ancient Egyptians, and later adopted by other early civilisations. "They were everywhere, they were the private spaces, like private gardens, they were in public places. Pretty well anywhere you went [in the Roman world], particularly in the time of the Roman Empire, you would come across them," says Alexander Jones, professor of the history of the exact sciences in antiquity at New York University, New York.

Like many ancient sundials, it's thought the one at Interamna Lirenas would have originally sat on a high column or pillar in the Forum – a kind of plaza that formed the heart of public life in any Roman city. Placing the instruments high up allowed them to catch the light even in the presence of tall buildings, so onlookers always had a clear view of the time – depending on the quality of their eyesight. "You'd have to try to read the time off the sundial from ground level, looking up to something that is maybe 20ft (6m) up," says Jones. This may also explain why so many surviving sundials were stripped of their markings long ago, having spent years out in the open, battered by the elements.

While early sundials tended to have inscriptions with instructions on how to read them, Jones explains that eventually – by the height of the Roman Empire – everyone would have known how to do this. "Later ones just have the lines and they won't even have numbers written on them, usually. So people must have learned how to read them," he says. Households that didn't have their own sundial would regularly send slaves off to find the nearest public one and report back the time.

And everyone had a more relaxed attitude to the time anyway, says Jones. "We make appointments for a quarter after the hour, something like that – that doesn't happen in ancient times. If you make an appointment for a particular hour, that's about as refined as it typically gets," says Jones. It was rarely necessary to attempt to calculate the length of a seasonal hour.

However, the constantly-shifting length of a Roman hour did attract some comments. "You do hear phrases like, 'huh, well, in a winter hour'", says Ker, who likens it to a "New York Minute" – an extremely short minute, once compared to the time between a traffic light turning green and the person in the car behind honking their horn.

Ker gives the example of a Roman poet who boasted that his book could be read in as little as an hour – then specified that he didn't just mean in any hour, but a winter hour. This was even more impressive, because this unit could take as little as 45 minutes. "There was a kind of way of talking about hours which would capture their elasticity," he says.

Surviving short nights and long days

Of course, the flipside of having long summer days and short winter ones was the nights. There were still only 1,440 minutes in every rotation of the Earth on its axis relative to the Sun – so every minute allocated to the daytime was essentially stolen from the night. This meant that at the peak of summer, while a day was 900 minutes long, a night only occupied 540 – the equivalent of just nine hours in modern time to have dinner, socialise and sleep.

These truncated summer nights could pose a problem, because just like people today, the ancient Romans were obsessed with getting enough sleep. Enter a hack pioneered by the emperor Marcus Aurelius, which allowed his court to rest for longer – and provided a rare example of rebellion against the seasonal fluctuation in the amount of daylight.

"During the summer, instead of waiting until sunset to let his attendants go [as was typical], he knocked off at around, I think, the 10th hour of the day. And what this meant was that they had enough time to go home, maybe exercise, maybe have dinner, and then still get eight hours of sleep," says Ker.

Tracking the passage of these ever-changing night hours could be tricky. That's because naturally, sundials didn't work after sunset. Instead the only option was the water-clock, which worked a bit like an hourglass – the amount of water that had passed through indicated the amount of time that had elapsed.

However, very few water-clocks have survived from the Roman era, says Jones. One reason might be that they had a lot of moving parts, unlike sundials which tended to be made from a single, large block of stone. But he also believes that they were never as common as sundials – they were expensive, high-status items.

It would have been perfectly possible for those in possession of a water clock to make an hour a standard length at night. But this is not what ordinary people wanted. "And so the really incredible thing is that they made water clocks that would be adjustable, so that they would also track hours that varied through the seasons," says Ker. "They were so committed to the system [of hour-stretching and contracting], that even at night-time they used a different device that would correspond to what the sundial was tracking," he says.

In fact, the only people who obeyed the modern length of an hour in ancient Rome were doctors and astronomers, who needed greater precision for their patients and calculations. Instead they used the so-called equinoctial hour, named after the two moments in the year where the amount of daylight and darkness is exactly equal, and an hour would have taken 60 minutes.

But whether a civilisation uses the antique method of hour-stretching, or the modern technique of daylight saving, of course we can't actually increase the amount of daylight available – only tweak the edges of how we use it. "You can't manipulate nature, you can't change the time that's available for doing productive work [outside]," says Jones. That's just something people have to live with."

bbc
 

Related Topics

Lost and . . . found? - Question by Setanta
Don't Forget To Change You're Clocks - Discussion by djjd62
 
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 03/18/2026 at 03:16:24