17
   

Flight 1549 praise is being over done.

 
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
We'll get those kind of analyses from the final comprehensive FAA investigative report.

Anyone giving might haves and I wouldn't ofs in news reports was and is talking out their arses without knowing any more about all of the facts than we do.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:06 pm
@BillRM,
Do you think the pilot didn't understand anything you're saying? Why would he not go for a nice flat landing, which was iffy enough.

Meantime, he wrote the book on these kind of landings.

I'll be quiet, not my zone.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:11 pm
@Butrflynet,
I am well aware that we are not likely to know for a year or so, but this just adds fuel to the fire re the evaluation that we are engaged in hero worship that is divorced from the facts. The claim is that he is a hero is based upon the results, but he can only be a hero for real if he made the right call. We don't know this yet. I think that all we can say right now is "thank God all survived, and I hope that the pilot did the right thing".
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:18 pm
@ossobuco,
Interesting article in a recent NYMag on this with interviews of other pilots

The Last Aviator
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:24 pm
@Butrflynet,
Copying this again. Please do write the Guild with your objections to their awarding the Master's Medal to the flight 1549 crew. Insist that they elevate you and all other aviation pilots to super human status and award the Master's Medal to the industry as a whole because any one of you might one day also deserve such praise. Tell them how unfair it is that you must first prove by real life demonstrated results the benefit of your training and years of experience in such an incident with similar conditions and outcome before being awarded with praise. This is what you are actually arguing about, Bill.


Butrflynet wrote:

Perhaps you should send a letter of objection to the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators and ask them to withdraw their Master's Medal award. Tell them it is an insult to all other aviators for the crew of that flight to be singled out for praise when all they did was what any other of the thousands of pilots in the New York area might have just as successfully accomplished in the same circumstances. Give them examples of it successfully being done before in the same location in freezing temperatures with no deaths and no major injuries.

Please be sure to share with us their response to you.



By the way, you are correct. There is an additional emotional factor with it having been in New York. The last time airliners were seen by the public flying that low in the heart of the city, it resulted in the 9/11 World Trade Center tragedies. Part of the exuberance is a mass celebration of that not being the case this time.

It doesn't however, alter the "George Bush" you are attempting here.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
OK, I'll read it.

I don't think I'll ever mind that that the guy landed the plane.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hmm hawkeye if he ditch there was almost a 100 percent chance there would be at least some survivers however if he try for a runway and fail the chance of anyone walking away would had been near zero.

All this had to be decided in seconds so going for a ditching even if he did have some chance for reaching a runway is not unreasonable.

With the radar information I am sure that a computer model could tell us now if a runaway landing would had been possible however as we seen in this thread if the results happen to be that he could had gotten to a runway
no one is going to broadcast that information until the final FAA report come out in a year or so.

We do what our superhuman heroes.
Endymion
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you don't consider ditching in water unless you are over the ocean


untrue

If it means NOT hitting buildings, a packed motorway, or mountains, and it's all there is to accommodate you, surely. The pilot made split decisions and with a lot of skill and a little luck, pulled off a near miracle

The other day i listened to an RAF controller talk down a blind pilot who could not see the runway (he'd suffered a stroke while flying solo)

We are all capable of being extraordinary people, pulling the unexpected out of the bag - people do such things every day, in small ways that never get media attention, but begrudging these pilots their due praise is silly.

They saved life. For that alone they are to be congratulated.
But the pilot is not just being congratulated for his pilot skills
He is being credited for his lack of indecision.

Hawkeye you ask - should he have gone on to try and make the runway - well, who ******* cares? If he had, and had fallen out of the sky, killing hundreds of people, you'd be up here saying he should have landed on the water while he had the chance.

Things worked out exactly as he envisioned them. What don't you like about that?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:33 pm
@BillRM,
ya gotta be right about being able to make the runway, this is true. Could he have kept enough air speed to not stall and kept enough altitude to not crash? I don't know, but the computer simulator does. The stink of it is that this guy went with what he knew, which is water ditching, when trying for the runway would have been the better odds choice. I want to know the truth before I call him a hero.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:36 pm
@Endymion,
Quote:
Hawkeye you ask - should he have gone on to try and make the runway - well, who ******* cares? If he had, and had fallen out of the sky, killing hundreds of people, you'd be up here saying he should have landed on the water while he had the chance


if he endangered the lives of everyone on board and destroyed an airplane needlessly I do care, this is true.
Butrflynet
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I am well aware that we are not likely to know for a year or so, but this just adds fuel to the fire re the evaluation that we are engaged in hero worship that is divorced from the facts. The claim is that he is a hero is based upon the results, but he can only be a hero for real if he made the right call. We don't know this yet. I think that all we can say right now is "thank God all survived, and I hope that the pilot did the right thing".


He's a guy, along with a whole bunch of other guys, who used his long history of training and experience to not only remain calm enough to assess his options, but also give instructions to fellow crew members and passengers in such a calm manner that enabled them to act and react in an equally calm manner that did indeed help to save their lives.

If some people want to call him a hero for that, it is okay with me. His life experience and training goes way above the norm. He didn't just fly planes. His life long dedication to studying, teaching and evaluating aviation safety procedures, accidents and risk management saved the lives of everyone on the plane that day and probably changed a lot of the training pilots will receive in the future.

As far as the media reporting about his calmness, my first post in this thread still holds:

http://able2know.org/topic/128984-1#post-3564301

Bill is wrong when he says Sully was just doing his job. It isn't a matter of Sully just doing his job. It was his extra-curricular training, teaching and experience outside of the routine job of commercial piloting that aided in his decision-making and execution of the skills needed to be successful.

Read these excerpts from his bio. Most of it is outside the routine job and training of a commercial jet pilot. He has spent most of his life conducting analyses of options like the ones he faced during flight 1549. You would be very hard pressed to find another pilot or tower radio person with an accumulation of equivalent experience and training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger

Quote:
Sullenberger enrolled at the United States Air Force Academy. He was selected as one of around a dozen other freshmen for a cadet glider program, and by the end of that year, he was an instructor pilot.[7] He graduated with a B.S. from the Academy and a masters degree from Purdue University[11] in 1973, majoring in psychology and basic sciences and receiving a number of academic awards.[12] In his graduation year at the academy, he received the Outstanding Cadet in Airmanship Award, which is given to the top flier in each graduating class.[7]

He served as a fighter pilot for the United States Air Force,[13] piloting McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II's from 1973 to 1980.[14] He advanced to become a flight leader and a training officer, and attained the rank of captain,[12] with experience in Europe, the Pacific and at Nellis Air Force Base, as well as operating as Blue Force Mission Commander in Red Flag Exercises.[14] While in the Air Force, he was a member of the official aircraft accident investigation board.[15]

Sullenberger has been employed by US Airways or its predecessor airlines since 1980.[16][17] (Pacific Southwest Airlines, or PSA, was acquired by US Air, later US Airways, in 1988.) In total, he has more than 40 years of flying experience, and since 2007[12] has run his own safety consulting business,[5] Safety Reliability Methods Inc.,[13] which provides "emergency management, safety strategies and performance monitoring to the aviation industry".[5] He has also been involved in a number of accident investigations conducted by the USAF and the National Transportation Safety Board, served as an instructor, Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) safety chairman, accident investigator, and national technical committee member.[13][18] His safety work for the ALPA led to the development of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Advisory Circular.[14] He was instrumental in developing and implementing the Crew Resource Management course that is used by US Airways, and he has taught the course to hundreds of other airline members.[14]

Working with NASA scientists, he coauthored a paper on error-inducing contexts in aviation.[14] He has gained more than 19,000 hours of flight experience to destinations across North America, Europe and South America on Airbus A320s and similar planes since joining US Airways.[15] His résumé states that he was an air accident investigator for a National Transport Safety Board inquiry into a major accident at Los Angeles International Airport, which "led to improved airline procedures and training for emergency evacuations of aircraft".[15] Sullenberger has also been studying the psychology behind keeping an airline crew functioning during a crisis.[19] He holds an Airline Transport Pilot License for single and multi-engine airplanes, and a Commercial Pilot License rating in gliders, as well as an expired flight instructor certificate for airplanes (single, multi-engine, and instrument), and gliders.[20]

In addition to his bachelor of science degree from the United States Air Force Academy, Sullenberger holds a master's degree in industrial psychology from Purdue University[12] and a master's degree in public administration from the University of Northern Colorado.[12]

He is a visiting scholar at the University of California, Berkeley, Center for Catastrophic Risk Management.[3][14] He was a speaker for two panels at the High Reliability Organizations (HRO) 2007 International Conference in Deauville, France, from May 29 to 31, 2007.[14]
Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 11:02 pm
@hawkeye10,

But the fact that everyone walked away proves he must of made the right decision, yes?
I'm sure he knows as much as we all do that luck played its part.
Whatever choice he'd made, a little luck was needed.
He knows himself better than you do. Knows what he's capable of. I'm sure that was a factor in his decision... what he considered his best option under the circumstances.
There are some who couldn't have made that decision. Some who would have dismissed their instincts in those few seconds and dumped all their faith in 'controller knows best'. Luckily for the passengers and the city, the pilot took responsibility. Not an easy thing to do, when other people's lives are at stake.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 11:04 pm
a quick look at the map of events indicates to me that getting back to La Guardia would have been possible.
http://www.avweb.com/newspics/usairways-flight1549-flight-path-map_credit-imjustsayin-Flickr_large.jpg

it will be interesting to hear the expert evaluation. The last bit of flight would have been over Flushing bay, thus no building strikes even at a low altitude. If there was not enough momentum to make the runway a ditch in the bay was always the back-up plan. Why decide the ditch in the river I wonder? This is very curious.....
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 11:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Safety, ever think of that?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 11:16 pm
@ehBeth,
Excellent article, ehBeth. Thanks for posting it. I hadn't seen it before.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 12:31 am


roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 12:33 am
@hawkeye10,
Then you might reconsider Georgeob's comments on loss of altitued in a 210 degree turn in a glide.

But I don't think you will.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 12:51 am
@Butrflynet,
Amazingly I hadn't seen or heard about the content of the 60 Minutes report before viewing it just now. I'm experiencing deja vue while watching it.

Here's the rest of the special.



0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 01:01 am
@roger,
Quote:
Then you might reconsider Georgeob's comments on loss of altitued in a 210 degree turn in a glide.

But I don't think you will.


he had already almost completed the turn before he broke off and decided to ditch. He decided that he was "likely" not going to make it, the question is was he correct.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 03:00 am
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet I been doing some google searching to see if I can find any science base studies on the emotional needs to have heroes after running into what to me seem to me the completely irrational attitude on this pilot being a hero.

Oddly so far without any luck at all even if I know there have to be studies in this area of human behavior.

When I do locate the studies I will start a new thread as such a total group irrational behavior over a subject is interesting.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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