The War on Christmas.

That's been my understanding also, Walter. Christmas was illegal in the Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay Colonies, not elsewhere on the continent. I'm sure that the French in Canada and the Spanish in Mexico and points south also celebrated. Not to mention the Dutch in New Amsterdam.

The Dutch in New Amsterdam is sort of a non-sequitor, since as we all know the British attacked, and New Amsterdam became British. Now we know it as Manhattan.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the higher one looks on the social (class) scale, the less of a frenzy is made about Christmas. It might be a time for family, but I sort of associated the over-decorating (lights strung around the outside of one's home , reindeer, etc.) mostly with a middle-class world that might treat Christmas like it is the best time of the year. Perhaps, it is for those that think that?

And, I thought it is an overlay of the pagan holiday Saturnalia, also referred to as the mid-winter feast. And, Jesus was actually born in the Spring, since the New Testament says the shepards were in the fields when he was born, so it was still light out in the spring. Also, the Three Wisemen, being astrologers, were looking for His birth at the time that the Sun was going into Pisces (March), since two-thousand years ago, we were entering the Age of Pisces.

December, as the time of Christmas, as I have read, was a brilliant marketing tool by the early Church, so the pagans could convert to Christianity, without giving up their greatly loved mid-winter feast.

Make way for the Christmas Sweater Ladies!

one of my least favorite sights this time of year...

It was illegal not just in Massachusetts . . .

In 1560, John Knox wrote:

By contrary Doctrine, we understand whatsoever men, by Laws, Councils, or Constitutions have imposed upon the consciences of men, without the expressed commandment of God's word: such as be vows of chastity, foreswearing of marriage, binding of men and women to several and disguised apparels, to the superstitious observation of fasting days, difference of meat for conscience sake, prayer for the dead; and keeping of holy days of certain Saints commanded by men, such as be all those that the Papists have invented, as the Feasts (as they term them) of Apostles, Martyrs, Virgins, of Christmas, Circumcision, Epiphany, Purification, and other fond feasts of our Lady. Which things, because in God's scriptures they neither have commandment nor assurance, we judge them utterly to be abolished from this Realm; affirming further, that the obstinate maintainers and teachers of such abominations ought not to escape the punishment of the Civil Magistrate."

Subsequently, the Long Parliament passed an act in 1647, to the effect:

"Forasmuch as the feast of the nativity of Christ, Easter, Whitsuntide, and other festivals, commonly called holy-days, have been heretofore superstitiously used and observed; be it ordained, that the said feasts, and all other festivals, commonly called holy-days, be no longer observed as festivals; any law, statute, custom, constitution, or canon, to the contrary in anywise not withstanding."

John Calvin (the source of Scots Presbyterianism and English Puritanism) spoke against "Popish superstitions," but was ambiguous about specifically banning them, probably realizing that he was swimming against the tide. The fundamentalist objection to Christmas and other such holidays is that these are grafts of paganism on christianity, and therefore offensive to their religious tenets.

Quite right, Set, but we were speaking of the Colonies, not ole blightey. On these shores the proscription against Yuletide celebration was (as far as I know) in effect only in the Puritan-dominated settlements. In Virginia, they danced the reel with abandon at Christmastide. (And with clarm as well.)

I'm sure they danced with clarmly abandon. I tried to find (but failed to find--i didn't try very hard) text of the banning of Christmas by the Massachusetts Bay Company. I did find a text in which the Governor waxes wroth with thoughtless fellows regaling themselves in the streets of a Christmas day when they ought to have been at work.

My point, though, is that for the fundamentalists of the 16th and 17th centuries, Christmas was merely one holiday on a list of pagan-inspired "Popish" holidays which true christians should eschew.

Another thought about Christmas spirit. In the Southern plantations in the ante-Bellum South, Christmas was one holiday that the plantation owners were usually not miserly with the slaves, I thought. Christmas to the slaves was a big holiday, I read. I believe African-Americans in the South have an abundance of Christmas spirit. In the North, Kwaanza may be slowly enlarging the holiday festivities?

Foofie, you do realize how perversely funny this is, don't you?

No I do not. It is just a part of ante-Bellum South history. What makes it "perversely funny"?

Perhaps the word "funny" is a poor choice of words.

You do realize that the institution of slavery was a barbaric crime that resulted in the deaths of thousands of human beings, right?

Foofie has some difficulty in understanding irony, especially when it's inadvertantly of her own making.

I had 3 son's who never went to Sunday school, have never been inside a church- one is 47 the other is 45 and the third is 43They have no understanding of what a God is. Have 7 grandchildren and it's the same for them, we celebrated father Xmas until they were old enough to work it out for themselves-- was a hell of a job keeping the secret from the youngest, had to threaten the two older boys with death.
Funny enough up until they worked it out they were adamant that father Xmas was real, if we had sent them to Sunday school-church, I wonder if they would have worked out that religion was a myth.

I always thought those Christmas sweaters and vest were kinda cheesy myself; except on kids.

Someone was talking about trying to keep the Santa belief going; when my kids were little I told them pretty quickly simply because we didn't have much money and couldn't get everything they wanted and I didn't want them to think they have "been bad." My daughter insists on keeping the myth alive for granddaughter and she keeps asking questions, I feel like a liar answering her.
Also since I do believe in God (but don’t believe in Christmas as Jesus’ birthday) it sort of feels like Santa takes on God like qualities and I wonder if she questions Christmas and we answer her in the affirmative and later she finds out we lied, well, will she also think God is a myth too? (I know there are those who are atheist, but this question is mainly for those who believe in God.)
Just thinking out loud.

yeah but I wear those Christmas sweaters since they are gifts and heck...it ain't gonna kill me - don't love them - but I am happy to wear someone's thoughtfulness for a bit!

I remember when I found out Santa wasn't real. All I remember is being a little sad. I loved the whole magic idea - it was exciting and mysterious and I thought it added charm to the season. But I never thought my parents were lying. Ever. I knew they did it for fun and Daddy WAS Santa! I still love Christmas - I think because my parents were so consistent in their love and care for us that it never crossed my mind that they were being sneaky and lying - that simply wasn't how they worked - and I knew it. But I certainly stand by a parent if they do not want to do Santa with their children. You have to live by your convictions.

My boys are starting to get it and when they asked, I simply asked them what do you think? They said they want to believe - and I hugged them and we went merrily on...there will come a day when they will answer, no, they don't believe and I will hug them and we will go merrily on. They have already discovered that the tooth fairy is me - and they were not disappointed...they kind of nodded their heads...funny thing is - next time one lost a tooth - they all just kept playing along - S. winked at me when I told him to put it under his pillow...little munchkin! I believe it is how you go about it as much as anything. But anytime they ask me to confirm truth for them, I do.

What I realize, or do not realize, is really outside the parameters of this thread. Unless one wants to be the moral arbiter of my character, one has no need, I believe, to ask me such personal questions. I could ask you the same anachronistic question, regarding the Holocaust, since I believe you have shown in other threads so much compassion for the enemies of Israel's existence (the direct result of said Holocaust). But, I do not, since I try to mind my own business, for the most part. Please do not morally joust with me, if that is what you are doing?

Foofie is a he. The original Foofie was the King's favorite hunting spaniel.

Now you need to explain the "irony" you make mention of (I know - do not end a sentence with a preposition). As you so astutely observe, I am not on the same wavelength of many.

Luckily no one has given me any of those sweaters and vest, but I admire you kindness in wearing them.

When I told my kids about Santa, I didn't just blurt it out while they still believed whole heartedly, it is just that when they asked about it all I just answered that he wasn't real. They didn't seem to get too upset. I think because I was only seventeen when I became pregnant and I was kind of immature anyway, when my kids were little, I treated them like I would talk to anyone else. They were used to being told stuff like that from me. Guess that is why daughter goes about it differently with her daughter. Seems like it always works out like that.

WoW! I read many of the comments and they really range... (No shopping or shooting puns intended, I PROMISE!) all over the place. So, I'd certainly like to weigh in on the commercial Christmas/no commercial Christmas with a little gun play to start.

First off, though I don't personally have a gun, I certainly appreciate all the nice, white packages marked, 'not for public sale' that load up my freezer every fall!
They are 'gifts' and they certainly make me 'jolly' and it certainly comes at a time of year when people are decking their halls --Please, no replies from any of you who would enjoy an opportunity to ‘deck my halls’, so to speak once I’ve finished saying my say.

Now I don’t guess I understand why anybody is bothered by Christmas being commercialized. Any encyclopedia will tell you that no body even celebrated it until the Romans suggested it some 300 years after Christ died. The way I understand it is that the Romans already had a big party going on at that time of the year with gift give, drinking and merry making in general so it only made good sense to invite the Christians to join in. Christianity was growing in numbers and fights with the pagan Romans were breaking out on larger and larger scales; that’s why the Romans government offered the preverbal olive branch. Some of the Christians wouldn’t have anything to do with it but a great number of them agreed on the condition that they be allowed to add the birth of Christ to the celebration. (The encyclopedia said Christ was actually born in the fall, around October).

At any rate, that’s how the gift giving and merry making really got started. The Roman/Christians said gift giving was a good fit for them because the Magi brought Jesus gifts. The merry making aspect of it was apparently a good fit too sense people have always thought getting off from work and having big parties for what ever reason was a great idea.

S-o-o-o-o-o, if the apostles weren’t passing gifts back and forth (Roman pagan addition) and making Yule logs (Scandinavian fertility god) and bringing trees into their houses (Druid- pagan winter solstice ritual) why the fuss? After all, Jesus didn't set at the last supper and say, "celebrate my ‘birthday’ in remembrance of me" did he? NO! So why not just let Christmas be what it really is! Nothing what so ever to do with the Christianity that Jesus taught, but instead one heck of a good reason to get together with friends and family so you can eat, drink and party while feeling good about yourself for doing your part to prop up the economy!

So hats’ off to the Romans Empire! Look’s like they left us more then just sturdy roads and cool viaducts. Wait! Didn't they invent New Years too? That’s right they did! Well then, party on my friends, party on…let’s all just forget our differences and get along like they did in Roman times. Let’s start accepting Christmas for what it really has been all along, the happiest ‘commercial’ time of year!

Cheers to all,
Sammiesoo

Christ was actually born in early June . The reason is that he was forced to attend the next class in high school because he missed the cuttoff date of April 15. SO his high school year book pictures list him with the class of 0018 rather than 0017.

You do realize that the institution of slavery was a barbaric crime that resulted in the deaths of thousands of human beings, right?
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Crime? is was many things but not a crime for most of the history of the human race and many great cultures that advance the whole human race had a foundation of slavery.

Love people taking the our current moral/legal system and moving it back where it does not belong.

If you wish thank anyone for the end of slavery it was the engineers who developed better prime movers then human power.