7
   

CHRISTMAS SHOP IN STORES THAT SAY "CHRISTMAS" ?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 03:13 pm
@cjhsa,
We can fight back my celebrating
it
, until the Marxist NKVD show up.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 03:19 pm
Where did Walter's post go? He mentioned the origins of modern Chrismas celebrations. Well anyway, the thread burped when I was trying to respond to it, but here is what I was saying:

I am well aware of all the history involving Christmas, Walter, but that has nothing to do with the treatment of the modern day Christmas festival/holiday/season/observation or whatever.

I am becoming increasingly intolerant of those who show so little tolerance for Christians or Christian beliefs or observations. I don't think the Jews would mind of the Christians enjoyed and appreciated their Jewish celebrations of Hannukah or whatever, and I don't think the Jews should be required to consider the feelings of Christians in their celebration when they celebrate it. Why can't the Christians simply enjoy their own celebration complete with all the traditional music, foods, decorations, symbols, gifts stories, fables, etc. etc. etc.? Everybody else is welcome to join in. Why must Christians defer to anybody else when they have their own celebration?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 03:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
I just thought that it (my deleted posr) would derail the threat.

And personally I think that's very (peculiar) funny how this 'problem' arose and is handled in the UK and the USA. (We do say "Happy holidays" as well .... because we've got two Christmas holidays Wink )
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 03:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

Why must Christians defer to anybody else when they have their own celebration?

Its exactly the same reason
that thay wanted to elect a black for a president:
many liberal whites felt guilty (that does not include ME).

It is part of the political correctness sickness,
against laissez faire political n economic freedom and Individualism.

The politically correct leaders want us to feel guilty,
about Christianity, among other things -- our past, in general.

As some people have put it:
its part of the culture war.





David
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

As some people have put it:
its part of the culture war.

David



That might well be:

in the 16th century, all this started when the Evangelicals in Germans didn't want (or couldn't, according to their theology) follow the Catholics, who celebrated traditionally the presenting of gifts on the 'liturgical days', either on December 6 (St. Nicolas) or January 6 (Epiphani/Magi).

So they choose the day before Christmas as the day for celebrating the secular family holiday, 'created' the 'Christ Child' which gave the presents ...
Only the Catholics stuck to the traditional day(s), until 19th century (in German speaking countries), when within a rather short period all made a 180° turn: now the Evangelicals got 'Father Christmas', presenting presents on the first Christmas Day, Catholics got the Christ Child and presents at Christmas Eve.

The only exemptin still are the Calvinists in the Netherlands (and nearly all other Dutchmen): there's Sinta Klaa (December 6) still the main holiday .... but the "American tradition" is up and coming ....
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:31 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thank u, Walter.
I understand that celebration of Christmas is very popular in Austria ?
(meaning 12/25)
and in Germany also ?
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:46 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
I only recognize "Capitalmas": the holiday to celebrate our capitalist system that is fueled by our endless desire for material crap and feelings of inadequacy. What ever would Jesus think about how his birthday is celebrated? They ultimate human irony.


I agree Green Witch. We have scaled back tremendously. We buy simple gifts for each other. My boys actually get three gifts a piece. We choose 3 children from Angel Tree for each of the boys around their age and let them get the gifts. It is a much better way to spend the holiday. We invite people over and just enjoy hanging out and cooking together. My stress over Christmas has been greatly relieved since we did this.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:48 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Like elsewhere (presents at Christmas Eve, two Christmas holidays ....).



What we (in the German speaking countries, Alsace, Belgium) "celebrate" today ('all-inclusive-Christmas' = presents, Christmas tree, mass, big meal on the first Christmas holiday, cakes, family carols etc etc) is actually a mixed Catholic/Evangelical bourgeoise "invention" of the 19th century).
We 'exported' that - and get back now the even more commercialised "American Christian" tradition.


Ha.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Seems to me that tolerance would include Christians being able to enjoy their own holiday as they wish and let those who celebrate something else do their own thing. I certainly have no problem with a predominently Jewish neighborhood emphasizing Hannukah/Channukah and would think it stupid to demand that they include consideration for Christians in that.


yep, me too
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:52 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

(meaning 12/25)


Christmas starts with the evening prayer (for Evangelicals) and the early children mass (for Catholics) in the afternoon of the 24th. The 25th and 26th are both public holidays - (nearly) all over Europe.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:03 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

Quote:
Seems to me that tolerance would include Christians being able to enjoy their own holiday as they wish and let those who celebrate something else do their own thing. I certainly have no problem with a predominently Jewish neighborhood emphasizing Hannukah/Channukah and would think it stupid to demand that they include consideration for Christians in that.


yep, me too


Um that was my statement and not Walter's I believe. I rather doubt Walter would disagree with it though.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
I meant you - I must have just clicked on the bottom poster to reply - sorry Foxfyre.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:16 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

Quote:
I only recognize "Capitalmas": the holiday to celebrate our capitalist system that is fueled by our endless desire for material crap and feelings of inadequacy. What ever would Jesus think about how his birthday is celebrated? They ultimate human irony.


I agree Green Witch. We have scaled back tremendously. We buy simple gifts for each other. My boys actually get three gifts a piece. We choose 3 children from Angel Tree for each of the boys around their age and let them get the gifts. It is a much better way to spend the holiday. We invite people over and just enjoy hanging out and cooking together. My stress over Christmas has been greatly relieved since we did this.


Right on. But there is something satisfying and special about exchanging gifts, even inexpensive simple ones, this time of year, but these do not have to be elaborate. And we now all keep it simple as well as make sure some of the less unfortunate are equally blessed.

I'm one who has always had to fight depression during the holidays partly due to reaction from old tapes of unhappy Christmas pasts and partly due to the incredible pressure I put on myself to do all the traditional things bigger and better every year. My husband and kids, however, have never experienced anything other than joyous Christmases. Once I learned to keep it simple, no more depression at Christmas, now we can all enjoy Christmas.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
. . . it was the Christian Christmas celebration that evolved into the Christmas traditions and resulting merchandising boom that we celebrate today, and I personally resent those who now try to exclude Christmas from the celebration.


Wrong again. Xmas, as we celebrate it today, has absolutely nothing to do with Christian traditions. Every single one of those traditions, from gift-giving to the fir tree to wild drunken parties, evolved from ancient pagan rituals, mainly Germanic and Scandinavian. The Norsemen called in Jul (Yule in Anglo-Saxon English, a word we still use sometimes). In ancent Rome it was the Saturnalia. What it was, in essence, was the celebration of the Winter Solstice. When these people accepted Christianity (reluctantly, I might add), the priests said they could no longer celebrate pagan rites. So the people said, in effect, "What? We're celebrating the birth of Jesus. This is now a Christian holiday."

And so it was decreed. The fact is that nobody knows during what time of the year Jesus was born. The Gospels do give a clue, and, if you believe in the truth of the Gospels, it's quite obvious that the birth could not have been in what corresponds to our month of December. Why? Because the Bible tells us that the shepherds were guarding their flocks at night. It has been ttraditional in the land that is now called Israel since time immemorial that night-herding of sheep is suspended in the Winter months, between the celebrations of Rosh Hoshana and Passover. Partly it's because nights are fairly cold and partly it's to leave the pastures fallow for a season, allowing them to regenerate. To say that Jesus was born in the month of Kislev (the Hebrew rough equivalent of our December) is to fly in the face of Biblical testimony, i.e. it is heresy, part of the general heresy promulgated by the Council of Nicea in the 4th Century.

Even the notion of Santa Claus is older than the identification of Father Christmas with Saint Nicholas. Originally, in pre-Christian times, the old guy who brings presents to good little children was identified with the Norse chief god Odin (or Woden or Wotan, whence we get our name of Wednesday [Woden's-day] for the fourth day of the week). Later, when Odin was no longer an object of worship, a substuitute had to be found and the Christians of that era opted for St. Nicholas, a cleric of Smyrna who had been famous during his lifetime for works of charity, especially towards orphans.

And while we're at it, here's a tidbit for you who object to the word Xmas being substituted for Christmas. That is a very Christian substitution. According to my Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary, "the chacter X in Xmas does not represent the letter X in the Roman alphabet but rather the Greek letter chi....Chi is the first letter in the Greek form of Christ...The symbol x or X has been used as an abbreviation for Christ since earliest Christian times." [1996 edition]

Bearing all that in mind, I don't understand what anyone's objection could possibly be to "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings." That is what, in the final analysis, we are celebrating -- the saeson when days are awfully short and nights terribly long. We know that sometime after the 12-day Xmas feast, this condition will begin to reverse itself and we can look forward to longer days and shorter nights. Cause enough for celebration.

Happy holidays, y'all.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:36 pm
@Merry Andrew,
I've already acknowledged the history Andrew. (Actually I have taught the history of Christmas as well as the origin and meaning of each symbol and custom going all the way back to the First Christmas.) I know all about the Pagan symbols and customs that the Christians adapted as their own thing.

But that does not change the truth of my original argument. It was the Christian Christmas celebration that has evolved into the traditional American Christmas most Americans now celebrate and the merchandising boom that business owners count on each year as a result of it.
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Its exactly the same reason
that thay wanted to elect a black for a president:
many liberal whites felt guilty (that does not include ME).


So did the Conservatives vote for Bush because they felt guilty about never previously electing a moron? The majority of Americans voted for Obama because he is the best person for the job - people closed their eyes to his skin color and just listened to him speak. Bush would be cleaning toilets if he was born a black man.

Back to topic:

Many religions have celebrations this time of year, and I have no trouble including them in a "Happy Holidays" Be glad you don't have an ethnic sounding last name like I do. I don't get "Happy Holidays" when some clerk see the name on my credit card, but rather "Happy Hanukkah". I don't really care, but I'm not a practicing Jew on any level. If anything, I'll be out dancing with Pan on Yule and roasting sausages in a bonfire.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:44 pm
I have no doubt that the fear of the economic consequences of a boycott by these two gun freaks is sending a tremor through the financial markets which may well lead to a new depression.


























Then again, maybe not . . .
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 05:46 pm
@Setanta,
Well-if I was looking for a Christmas pudding I must admit I would go to a shop that had a sign up saying "CHRISTMAS PUDDINGS--BUY ONE GET ONE FREE"
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2008 10:48 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:

So did the Conservatives vote for Bush because they felt guilty
about never previously electing a moron?

No; that was just staving off the leftism of Gore n Kerry.

Quote:

The majority of Americans voted for Obama because he is the
best person for the job - people closed their eyes to his skin color
and just listened to him speak.

No.
Obama was not the first.
I remember alleged Republicans eagerly wanting to nominate
Colin Powell, for no particular reason that thay coud describe,
but he refused to run.
I 'd have voted for Condi Rice or Alan Keyes
(thay are decent Americans)
to stave off loss of personal freedom from the left.

If u r Jewish, then I surmise that Christmas means nothing to u,
so celebrating Christmas is not a matter of concern,
the same way that my thoughts never go to celebration
of Jewish holidays of which I have no information.

Do u agree with or dissent from my former partner 's
description of Hanukkah 's importance to Jews
as being "about the same as Ground Hog Day" ?



David
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Nov, 2008 05:58 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I've already acknowledged the history Andrew. (Actually I have taught the history of Christmas as well as the origin and meaning of each symbol and custom going all the way back to the First Christmas.) I know all about the Pagan symbols and customs that the Christians adapted as their own thing.


I didn't teach the history of Christmas - only remember that what I'd studied at university (and actually used for a paper).

How did you explain your pupils or students that the traditional U.S. Christian Christmas roots in a century old Catholic (ick!) German (shame on them!) tradition? And that the Evangelical/Protestant reformers opposed such festivities as a Christian tradition but celebrated them in a secular way? (Or not at all like the Calvinists, Puritans and devout Reformists .... what they actually still do today?)
0 Replies
 
 

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