BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 04:55 pm
@Diest TKO,
Yes the the nazis was not nice people and gays was kill by them however unlike the Jews they was also the killers.

And the fact that the leadership of the Nazis had more then it far share of homosexuals is a fairly proven fact of history.

The posting I place was just the result of a fast google search however from the history channel to my copy of the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" the same information can be found.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 06:00 pm
@Debra Law,
Only THREE states, (Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina), allowed slavery. Of the 55 delegates present, only 13 came from slave states (far LESS than the 50 percent that you ignorantly alleged)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now you are making up facts! Shame on you and how in the hell do you think you can get away with this nonsense with the internet at everyone finger tips? Hmm it you are so wrong about this maybe we should take the time to check out your other claims concerning court cases you had been posting.

Doing my own counting of delegates I get 20 from slave states not counting the five from NJ that I would have a right to count. So 20/55 would be 40 percent and counting NJ it would be 45 percent near enough to half for government work. See below.


First New Jersey did not do away with slavery completely until 1840 or so! NJ and even some slave states did have free blacks and even allow them to vote in some cases however slaves exist even in NJ for decades after the signing of the constitution.

From Wikepeda:

Although at first New Jersey allowed African American men to vote, the legislature disfranchised them in 1807. In 1830 two-thirds of those enslaved in the North lived in New Jersey. It was not until 1846 that New Jersey completely abolished slavery. [5]Although slavery was abolished in 1846 by statute ("An Act to Abolish Slavery"), it was only a name change. [7] Former slaves were termed apprentices and were still subject to servitude to their owners. It was not until the Thirteenth Ammendment to the United States Constitution was passed that all forms of involuntary servitude were abolished in New Jersey.


Washington and Jefferson both was slave holders in the state of Virginia one of the most powerful states in the union and somehow not on your very short list of slave states!

http://www.virginiaplaces.org/population/slavery.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slavery in England was thus ended by a court decision - but the British government continued to support slavery across the Atlantic Ocean, in the American colonies, by having the king veto laws proposed by Virginia to ban the importation of slaves. The General Assembly of the Virginia colony was not trying to end slavery - just the competition from foreign sources. If the slave trade could be blocked, then the slaves who were born in Virginia could be sold for higher prices to planters in the new agricultural areas on the Western frontier (at that time, Alabama and Mississippi...).
In 1782, when Virginia leaders were intensely debating the meaning of "liberty" after the British surrender at Yorktown, the General Assembly relaxed the limits on manumitting or freeing slaves. These limits were established originally to require slaveowners to retain their property" until death, rather than to free old slaves and try to dump the costs of caring for those no longer productive as agricultural laborers onto the general taxpayers. The constraints on manumission were re-imposed in 1806, when the Removal Law established that freed must leave Virginia within a year. Free blacks were seen as a serious threat to slavery...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 09:52 pm
@Debra Law,
So you was going to show me up on the subject of history depending on one Wikipedia article to do it!

Poor little girl there are a great number of people that know more history then I do but you are far from being one of them.

Debra I had came to the conclusion after a little bit more research and after finding the article with the errors that you was more then likely was not trying to get away with misinformation just that you know very little about our country history and took some errors that was contain in an Wikipedia article to heart.

It still amaze me that anyone could look at that list and not know at once that they let out the great state of Virginia home of both Washington and Jefferson is still beyond me. The fact that NJ was a slave state is not all that well known and most people would just assume that all northern states was free, so I can not fault you too greatly for not knowing that bit of history.

Now the fact that only 12 of the 13 states did send delegates to the convention should be known by anyone with a good grounding in history that you seem to lack. Poor little RI did not come to the party. Off hand I think they was also the very last of the 13 states to sign the constitution

So out of the 12 states five of them was slave states and once more Virginia was the equal at least of New York or Pennsylvania in wealth or population or important in the early colonies.

Better luck next time.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 10:35 pm
@Debra Law,
The States were constitutionally forbidden from depriving any person of equal protection of the laws.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Debra I was so shock by the first part of your nonsense that I am just now going to deal with this last fantasy of your.

Where do I start well let see first after President Hayes ended southern reconstruction and allow the southern whites to regain control of their state governments that was the last of equal rights for the blacks in the south until the late 1950s.

No equal protection for blacks enforce by the federal government for 80 years or so!

The SC rule in 1896 that your wonderful equal protection clause did not in fact apply to blacks using the railroads as we both know this is long after the end of the civil war.

The civil war ended slavery but did not bring about federal protections in the south after reconstruction ended and the federal troops was pull out.

What fantasy world do you live in?

Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 08:34 am
@BillRM,
The irony of your post is that the while slaves were freed, and later Jim Crowe/separate but equal practices were started, they were done so by the will of the majority. They were wrong. The EP clause does in fact apply to them.

What we see with things like gay marriage is people trying to establish parallel institutions. We've been here before. Separate isn't equal.

T
K
O
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 10:26 am
@Diest TKO,
Wrong under our current moral system they were indeed wrong, however they was clearly not wrong under their then existing moral system.

Like Physics there is no absolute reference moral system that one can refer to.

Our fathers and grandfathers did not question the morals of leveling whole cities and killing in one night hundred of thousands of men, women and children in fire bombing raids.

Good men some of them who still walk our streets took part in this form of actions in WW2 that we are must more likely to question under our current moral code.

You and your like would wish us to change our moral code to see something wrong with not allowing gay marriages and that is your right however that need the agreement of the majority of the population.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 11:06 am
@Debra Law,
Now Debra as you are posting from fantasy land I will give you something to chew on.

The constitution and the government that it gave birth to is clearly both extra legal and illegal on it face.

We were under the legal government base on the Articles of Confederation that had means to change it build in just as the current constitution and yet our founding fathers just decided to walk away from this legal government and form another and my question is by what right did they do so.

Yes after the convention the states did approved their actions with some states such as RI kicking and screaming all the way, however if the colonies had a right by agreement to walk away from the Articles why would not the southern states had the same right to walk away from the constitution as they wishes to do in 1861?

I would bet that if the southern states had taken the question to the then SC instead of the battlefield they might had won the right to form a new nation with out a drop of blood being lost.

So Debra by the same crazy logic you had been using on this thread we do not need to worry about the meaning of the 14 amendment instead you need to take the matter of gay marriages up with the next congress setting under the legal government of the Articles.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 12:31 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Wrong under our current moral system they were indeed wrong, however they was clearly not wrong under their then existing moral system.

Like Physics there is no absolute reference moral system that one can refer to.

Our fathers and grandfathers did not question the morals of leveling whole cities and killing in one night hundred of thousands of men, women and children in fire bombing raids.

Good men some of them who still walk our streets took part in this form of actions in WW2 that we are must more likely to question under our current moral code.

You and your like would wish us to change our moral code to see something wrong with not allowing gay marriages and that is your right however that need the agreement of the majority of the population.


As I've said, we have already reached our inevitable impasse long ago. I'll agree to disagree on this philosophy. The reasons to oppress blacks even when it was socially acceptable were still irrational. This is not about moral relativity, this is about a modern society being able base it's laws on reason, logic and ethics. After all, the golden rule is not a moral one as much as it is a ethical one. Might does not make right.

The Nazis would have been wrong even if they had won the war.
K
O
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 01:45 pm
@Diest TKO,
With out question might make right because the side on the losing end do not get to decide what is right or wrong. Unless you are of the opinion there is some god floating in space that you can refer the matter to.

The south for example did have nice logical arguments concerning their right to leave the union and Jefferson David in his book the "Rise and Fall of the Confederation’ did an outstanding job of putting those arguments forward.

It still does not matter in the real universe the South did not win.

Now slavery is hardly irrational and it did allow some very great civilizations to exist before the machine age replace the need for this form of human labor.

I still see little or no logic to the licensing of private sexual relationships that does not effect the public sphere one way or another and no moral wrong being done by my moral code.

Both you and Debra can not have it both ways if the intend of the writers of the constitution did not have such gay rights in mind and you then try to get around that fact by referring to changing moral codes the logic would be that it have to be morals codes that had won accepted.

The moral code that state that it is wrong to not allow same sex couples state license unions had clearly not as yet come near to winning majority support therefore it is not the moral code of the whole community to date.

Now my friend by what right are you and Debra trying to imposed your morals on the rest of us by the force of law?


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 02:03 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Now my friend by what right are you and Debra trying to imposed your morals on the rest of us by the force of law?


They are not doing that. They can't. They are trying to persuade enough people necessary to do it.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 02:50 pm
@spendius,
No they are not. Debra wish to used the courts to imposed her viewpoint and she is not trying to win heart and minds she is in fact stating that anyone who would dare not to agree with her is a bigot.

That is not the behavior of someone who is trying to win hearts and minds.

The whole movement had a chip on thier shoulders and daring people to knock it off.

The examples of this is the blacklisting and the boycott attempts.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 05:49 pm
Quote:
By LISA LEFF
The Associated Press
Monday, January 5, 2009; 11:16 PM

SAN FRANCISCO -- Sponsors of California's voter-approved gay marriage ban accused Attorney General Jerry Brown on Monday of advancing a far-fetched legal theory to justify overturning it.

In papers submitted to the state Supreme Court, lawyers for the Protect Marriage coalition argued that Brown had "invented an entirely new theory" by asking the justices to trump the electorate, which approved Proposition 8 to amend the state Constitution to limit marriage to a man and a woman.

"We will not mince words. The attorney general is inviting this court to declare a constitutional revolution," reads the brief co-written by Kenneth Starr, dean of Pepperdine University's law school and former independent counsel who investigated President Bill Clinton.
.
.
.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/05/AR2009010503392.html?hpid=sec-nation

next up is the cal supreme court, in the battle between minority ability to demand benefits from the collective and the collectives right to say no. No matter which way California goes this is not decided until the US Supreme court rules.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
They have no chance hawk.

We can tolerate their activities but when they steal words like "gay" and "marriage" from consciousness they are fucked.

Why can't they call it what nearly everybody in the pubs do? Are they ashamed of the truth.

If pubs go your freedoms follow.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:23 pm
@BillRM,
Might does not make right. Conflicts of might only establishes who is the mightier.

You are welcome to your thoughts on gays and slavery, but don't try and sell them as rational or logical. You've failed abysmally to establish any sort of sound footing there.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:34 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Might does not make right.


It does in Darwin's scheme.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:47 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Might does not make right. Conflicts of might only establishes who is the mightier


I am not sure that "right" is knowable or the point, the question is if we the people are not driving this bus called America then America has gone off the rails. The American people need to be able to practice self determination, we need to decide what kind of society we want and then work together to get there. This idea that what we want does not matter because no one has the right to judge the worthiness of the claims made against the collective due to an extreme interpretation of the individuals right to personal freedom........This idea does not fly with me. The cost of this argument of yours winning is the splintering of the collective, anarchy, and the debasement of all. Individual freedom from constraints imposed by the collective is just not worth the price, it is a road to no where. We need to be all pulling together in the same direction if humans are to survive, you and your kind are willing to wreck those efforts so that you can have your whims of the day satisfied.

It is time to toss the individual rights fanatics overboard, they don't have the commons sense that God gave them anymore. It is time for a new direction.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:48 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Might does not make right.


It does in Darwin's scheme.

Oh spendi, how you do bring a smile to my face every now and then.

No. This is not what Darwin, nor any evolutionary biologist since would have said. What they would have said is...

"FIT makes right."

In which case (interestingly) it would be a fairly sound argument for the context of law. What you and your uneducated evo-basher hooligans love to misquote is the notion that the strongest survive. This was NEVER Darwin's theory. His theory was that the FITTEST survived. Survival was not the product of might but the product from the relationship of a species and it's environment.

Even though you've been corrected on this matter numerous times, I don't expect it to stick this time (nor ever).

T
K
O
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 06:51 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
. . . Now the fact that only 12 of the 13 states did send delegates to the convention should be known by anyone with a good grounding in history that you seem to lack. Poor little RI did not come to the party. Off hand I think they was also the very last of the 13 states to sign the constitution

So out of the 12 states five of them was slave states and once more Virginia was the equal at least of New York or Pennsylvania in wealth or population or important in the early colonies.

Better luck next time.



Your ramblings serve no purpose at all. Borrowing a phrase from Major Pierce, you labor to produce a trifle.

Slave owners were indeed hypocrites, but they did not comprise the majority nor even 50 percent of the 55 delegates who attended the Constitutional Convention as you falsely alleged. Again, most convention delegates were deeply opposed to slavery. For example, the chief delegate from the State of New Jersey was Governor Livingston. He was heavily involved in the anti-slavery movement.

The convention was called to remedy the evils and ill effects of a weak central government. The Articles of Confederation failed to provide for the common defense, the general welfare, and security of liberty.

Concerning the deficiency of the Articles, Delegate Gerry pronouced that the evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. Delegate Mason argued that the delegates ought to attend to the RIGHTS of EVERY class of the people. He insisted on a system of government that provided no less carefully for the rights and happiness of the lowest classes than of the highest classes.

Delegate Rand stated the general object of the convention was to provide a cure for the evils under which the U.S. labored. Those evils were traced to the turbulence and follies of democracy. The U.S. needed constitutional checks to guard against these evils. Delegate Madison stated it was essential for Government to provide for the safety, LIBERTY, and happiness of the people--and that was the purpose of their deliberations. Madison stated it was necessary to provide more effectually for the security of private rights and the steady dispensation of Justice. "Interferences with these were the evils which had more perhaps than any thing else, produced this convention." The mission of the convention was to frame an effective government with sufficient checks and balances to safeguard the people against tyranny and despotism.

In your ignorance, you may deny our national history and the purposes and intent of the framers, but your denials have no basis in fact or law. Again, the Civil War Amendments changed our constitutional landscape forever. The federal government acquired the constitutional power to secure and enforce our rights against STATE infringements. The States were constitutionally forbidden from depriving any person of equal protection of the laws.

The judicial branch of government is vested with the power and authority to adjudicate all cases and controversies arising under the Constitution. Our courts have been slow to enforce our constitutional guarantees (see, e.g., Plessy v. Ferguson), but reason and logic eventually prevails (see, e.g., Brown v. Board of Education, Loving v. Virginia, Roe v. Wade, Romer v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas).

It makes no difference that our framers could not foresee the future and the different forms of families that would come into existence. They provided this nation with constitutional principles that endure from one generation to the next. In the same way our constitution protects modern forms of bearable arms and communications, our constitution protects modern forms of families, including families headed by homosexual couples. The tyranny of the mob cannot prevail pursuant to the supreme law of the land.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 07:02 pm
@Diest TKO,
I know that TK but I wasn't referring to tulips and algea. I was talking about the higher animals with which we have much in common according to the biologists.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 07:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Might does not make right. Conflicts of might only establishes who is the mightier


I am not sure that "right" is knowable or the point, the question is if we the people are not driving this bus called America then America has gone off the rails.

The notion that progress is so linear as the motion of vehicle shows how limited your scope is of human history. Perhaps it's the nature of dualism that makes you think this is a continuum.

Either way, even if the US was a bus I've seen nothing to suggest we're even close to the yellow lines.
hawkeye10 wrote:

The American people need to be able to practice self determination, we need to decide what kind of society we want and then work together to get there.

You don't understand what "we" means. "We" means that we include all views and ideas, not just the majority ideas.
hawkeye10 wrote:

This idea that what we want does not matter because no one has the right to judge the worthiness of the claims made against the collective due to an extreme interpretation of the individuals right to personal freedom........This idea does not fly with me.

Gay marriage is not even remotely close to an extreme interpretation of individual rights. It's the desire to enjoy the rights that others already are enjoying.
hawkeye10 wrote:

The cost of this argument of yours winning is the splintering of the collective, anarchy, and the debasement of all.

False, false, and false.

Gay marriage will not make the sky fall. As for splintering, what collective do you think you're talking about?
hawkeye10 wrote:

Individual freedom from constraints imposed by the collective is just not worth the price, it is a road to no where. We need to be all pulling together in the same direction if humans are to survive, you and your kind are willing to wreck those efforts so that you can have your whims of the day satisfied.

People are free to collect as they please, why should someone be forced in that doesn't desire that for themselves? What of self governing?

What you are talking about is fascism. I understand however why that is appealing to you though.
hawkeye10 wrote:

It is time to toss the individual rights fanatics overboard, they don't have the commons sense that God gave them anymore. It is time for a new direction.

This makes you a fascist.
K
O
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Prop 8?
  3. » Page 55
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 11/25/2024 at 01:49:24