Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 02:31 pm
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

Why can you not accept the reality that most American do not want homosexuality "normalized"?


Most white Americans living in Southern States didn't want black people to become free persons. They wanted to preserve the "institution of slavery."

Most white Americans did not want to eat at the same lunch counter as black Americans or have their white children attend school with black children.

Most white Americans did not want interracial marriages "normalized."

Most Americans who held the political power in this country didn't want women to gain political power through the right to vote.

Most Americans didn't want to live or work among other Americans of Japanese descent during WWII. So they rounded them up and placed them in internment camps.

Gay people could not reveal their sexual orientation without great personal risk to their lives. Some were beaten and killed; others were socially persecuted and criminally prosecuted.

The above represents a small sample of the "reality" that has existed in our national history of majoritarian oppression of disfavored individuals and minority groups.

Unlike you, other people are unwilling to accept majoritarian oppression of disfavored individuals and minorities. If oppression was something that people just blindly accepted, then all the progress this country has made towards liberty and justice for all would not have occurred. Heck, we wouldn't even be the United States of America because we would have accepted the oppression and tyranny of the King of England.

Quote:
Why will the minority not compromise and accept civil unions?


Relegating an entire class of people to second-class citizenship was not acceptable during the many decades when Jim Crow laws mandated a separate status for black people, and it's not acceptable today with respect to gay people.
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 02:36 pm
@Debra Law,
As usual, you make excuses to avoid a direct argument.

Homosexual marriage is not a legislative matter IMO. It is a social.

This society has deemed marriage to be between 1 man and 1 woman. Other societies have a different view.

You side has not been able to overcome this matter of social makeup. Why?
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 03:13 pm
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

As usual, you make excuses to avoid a direct argument.


You are lying. I avoided nothing. You asked me why I could not accept majoritarian oppression of gay people. I told you why. You asked me why the minority would not "compromise" and accept the status of second-class citizenship. I told you why.

Quote:
Homosexual marriage is not a legislative matter IMO. It is a social.


Your statement proves that you are ignorant and uneducated. You know little or nothing about the basic principles of our constitutional republic.

The legislative branch of government makes the laws. The LEGAL status of marriage may only be entered into or dissolved in accordance with the law. It is the law that prohibits gay marriage. The right of an individual to marry the person of his/her choice is a fundamental right secured by Constitution against State infringement. Our Constitution prohibits majoritarian oppression of individuals and minorities. Our Constitution, the supreme law of the land, commands that all persons similarly situated must be treated equally. All state laws that violate the manifest tenor of the Constitution are VOID.


Quote:
This society has deemed marriage to be between 1 man and 1 woman. Other societies have a different view.


In our modern day society, gay couples are uniting in committed relationships. They are forming families. Many are raising children. Why should their families be accorded less dignity and respect than what is afforded to other families through the operation of our laws? Because you say so?

Quote:
You side has not been able to overcome this matter of social makeup. Why?


We must deal with the reality and the fact that not all existing families are the same, yet all existing families are entitled to be treated equally by the State. Therefore, it is "your side" that cannot understand that majoritarian oppression of disfavored classes of people through the operation of State laws is immoral, unfair, wrong, and unconstitutional.

Why do you subscribe to liberty and justice for yourself but not for others?
0 Replies
 
Copper Seth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 05:39 pm
@Copper Seth,
Debra, I repeat Since when is separation of church and state in our 1st amendment? It was an idea Thomas Jefferson expressed in a letter and isn't in our constitution.
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 06:27 pm
Huckabee: Gays haven't suffered enough to call for equal rights http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/huckabee1119.html Sick man.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 06:32 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

We don't demand proof that a car is in running order to grant a license.


Do you live in America? Because if you do, then yes, we do. It's generally referred to as an 'inspection' and is usually required to get your car licensed for operation.

In better news, the CA supreme court today agreed to hear several cases challenging prop 8; however, they stopped short of issuing an injunction against it.

Cycloptichorn
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 06:41 pm
@Copper Seth,
Copper Seth wrote:

Debra, I repeat Since when is separation of church and state in our 1st amendment? It was an idea Thomas Jefferson expressed in a letter and isn't in our constitution.


Since always! Our founders did not create a theocracy. Religious institutions do not Our founders created a constitutional republic. Educate yourself.

Debra Law wrote:

Copper Seth wrote:

The word marriage, was brought about as a religious deal and I think it should be kept that way.


You are wrong. In this country, religious institutions do not control entry into "marriages" or the formation of "families." Marriage is a LEGAL status that may only be entered or dissolved in accordance with CIVIL law. Have you NOT heard of the separation of church and state that is embodied in our First Amendment?

If you "think" our nation's religious organizations ought to regulate familial rights and duties, then it is clear that you do not possess even the most basic knowledge concerning the formation of this country that would allow you to have a rational thought. You may remedy your ignorance through the acquisition of knowledge. Until then, however, your uneducated "thoughts" must be dismissed as lacking all possible credibility.



Begin your education with this case and continue.

REYNOLDS v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878)
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/98/145.html

Quote:
The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted. The precise point of the inquiry is, what is the religious freedom which has been guaranteed.

Before the adoption of the Constitution, attempts were made in some of the colonies and States to legislate not only in respect to the establishment of religion, but in respect to its doctrines and precepts as well. The people were taxed, against their will, for the support of religion, and sometimes for the support of particular sects to whose tenets they could not and did not subscribe. Punishments were prescribed for a failure to attend upon public worship, and sometimes for entertaining [98 U.S. 145, 163] heretical opinions. The controversy upon this general subject was animated in many of the States, but seemed at last to culminate in Virginia. In 1784, the House of Delegates of that State having under consideration 'a bill establishing provision for teachers of the Christian religion,' postponed it until the next session, and directed that the bill should be published and distributed, and that the people be requested 'to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of such a bill at the next session of assembly.'

This brought out a determined opposition. Amongst others, Mr. Madison prepared a 'Memorial and Remonstrance,' which was widely circulated and signed, and in which he demonstrated 'that religion, or the duty we owe the Creator,' was not within the cognizance of civil government. Semple's Virginia Baptists, Appendix. At the next session the proposed bill was not only defeated, but another, 'for establishing religious freedom,' drafted by Mr. Jefferson, was passed. 1 Jeff. Works, 45; 2 Howison, Hist. of Va. 298. In the preamble of this act (12 Hening's Stat. 84) religious freedom is defined; and after a recital 'that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty,' it is declared 'that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order.' In these two sentences is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State.

In a little more than a year after the passage of this statute the convention met which prepared the Constitution of the United States.' Of this convention Mr. Jefferson was not a member, he being then absent as minister to France. As soon as he saw the draft of the Constitution proposed for adoption, he, in a letter to a friend, expressed his disappointment at the absence of an express declaration insuring the freedom of religion (2 Jeff. Works, 355), but was willing to accept it as it was, trusting that the good sense and honest intentions of the people would bring about the necessary alterations. [98 U.S. 145, 164] 1 Jeff. Works, 79. Five of the States, while adopting the Constitution, proposed amendments. Three-New Hampshire, New York, and Virginia-included in one form or another a declaration of religious freedom in the changes they desired to have made, as did also North Carolina, where the convention at first declined to ratify the Constitution until the proposed amendments were acted upon. Accordingly, at the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say: 'Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.' Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.

. . .

Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. . . . but there cannot be a doubt that, unless restricted by some form of constitution, it is within the legitimate scope of the power of every civil government to determine whether polygamy or monogamy shall be the law of social life under its dominion.


If you are capable of rational thought and bother to educate yourself, you will learn that MARRIAGE is not a "religious deal" as you allege. Any attempt to place marriage under the control of religious organizations would violate the First Amendment.




blueflame1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 06:57 pm
@Debra Law,
Score one apple for the teacher.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

In better news, the CA supreme court today agreed to hear several cases challenging prop 8; however, they stopped short of issuing an injunction against it.

Cycloptichorn


That's good news. I've read all of the petitions by the parties and I am optimistic that the Court will invalidate Proposition 8. Before the people of California may write discrimination of disfavored minorities into their organic document, I believe they must first repeal the equal protection clause. At least two of the petitions quote Justice Scalia:

"Our salvation is the Equal Protection Clause, which requires the democratic majority to accept for themselves and their loved ones what they impose on you and me."

Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Dep't of Health, 497 U.S. 261, 300 (1990) (Scalia, J., concurring).

Because the Equal Protection Clause secures the rights of individuals and minorities from majoritarian oppression, I don't see how the majority can evade that core constitutional protection without abolishing it completely for themselves as well. Are they willing to give up their constitutional security for equal protection of laws in order to deny it to others?

And if they do give up that constitutional security, then they risk sanctions by our federal Congress. After all, the Federal Constitution guarantees to every state in the union a republican form of government (which requires checks and balances against majoritarian oppression).


BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:26 pm
@Debra Law,
The author Robert Heinlein came up with the concept of the crazy years in the 1950s where the US society would for a time go completely around the bend.

It would seem like real life had once more catch up with art and we are now entering the crazy years where black is white and all logical and commonsense is thrown away in favor of dreams of what should be.

To be fair the bulk of the people are still sane but our so call intellectual class need some serious treatment on the couch of common sense.

The fourteen amendment written to clean up some of the issues remaining after the civil war is now a total rights giving amendment for any PC sub group who might wish to call upon it words. If some of the words do not happen to fit our wishes we will just pretend they are not there and if some words should be there that are not we will add them.

Heinlein chart of our future call for a backlash that ended up with a anti-science religious dictatorship if memory serve me correctly.

Heinlein painted a grim picture of this world that the crazy years turn into but even those I am an a atheist and a supporter of the bill of rights, my emotions reaction to the kind of craziness that Debra is projecting is to wonder if a good old religious base dictatorship might not be too bad of an idea after all.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:32 pm
@Debra Law,
Well if I was a citizen of CA and the court did what you desire Debra my next ballot amendment would be to do away with the California Supreme Court completely.

I have a feeling that the court is bright enough to know that would be the results or something very similar but you never can tell it would be interesting however.

Heinlein crazy years here we come.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:43 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Well if I was a citizen of CA and the court did what you desire Debra my next ballot amendment would be to do away with the California Supreme Court completely.

I have a feeling that the court is bright enough to know that would be the results or something very similar but you never can tell it would be interesting however.

Heinlein crazy years here we come.


Good luck with that. That threat has never stopped judges, once, in the history of America, from doing what is right.

I've read every book Heinlein's written, and nothing he proposes would seek to keep loving people from being together and from having equal rights, Bill. Just why does the prospect bother you so?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:56 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Well if I was a citizen of CA and the court did what you desire Debra my next ballot amendment would be to do away with the California Supreme Court completely.


If the CA Supreme Court invalidates a majoritarian attempt to oppress a minority, you would get rid of the Court for complying with its duty to protect individuals and minorities from majoritarian oppression? How many insane people (besides yourself) would sign your petition to abolish the judiciary so that the matter could be placed on the ballot?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 08:57 pm
@Debra Law,
I sure would do away with a court that would dare to tell it people that they can not amendment their own constitution in ways that the setting judges do not care for. It would be kind of like the US Supreme Court stating that we had already rule that blacks can not be citizens so we are not going to allow the 13 and 14 amendments to go into effect.

To be real I would just take away their oversight powers concerning amendments however the backlash on what you wish to see happen might be a great deal stronger then that.

Hell we are in fact talking about actions that would be in fact be declaring a court dictatorship over the people and the government of California.
Copper Seth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 09:02 pm
@Debra Law,
I just found this on Wikepedia while researching Loving v. Virginia. I'm no legal expert, but check this out...

The Majority Opinion of the New York Court of Appeals in Hernandez v. Robles rejected any reliance upon the Loving case as controlling upon the issue of same-sex marriage, holding that:

“ [T]he historical background of Loving is different from the history underlying this case. Racism has been recognized for centuries " at first by a few people, and later by many more " as a revolting moral evil. This country fought a civil war to eliminate racism's worst manifestation, slavery, and passed three constitutional amendments to eliminate that curse and its vestiges. Loving was part of the civil rights revolution of the 1950s and 1960s, the triumph of a cause for which many heroes and many ordinary people had struggled since our nation began. It is true that there has been serious injustice in the treatment of homosexuals also, a wrong that has been widely recognized only in the relatively recent past, and one our Legislature tried to address when it enacted the Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act four years ago (L 2002, ch 2). But the traditional definition of marriage is not merely a by-product of historical injustice. Its history is of a different kind. The idea that same-sex marriage is even possible is a relatively new one. Until a few decades ago, it was an accepted truth for almost everyone who ever lived, in any society in which marriage existed, that there could be marriages only between participants of different sex. A court should not lightly conclude that everyone who held this belief was irrational, ignorant or bigoted. We do not so conclude.[10] ”

Similarly the concurring opinion in the same case stated that:

“ Plaintiffs' reliance on Loving v. Virginia (388 US 1 [1967]) for the proposition that the US Supreme Court has established a fundamental "right to marry the spouse of one's choice" outside the male/female construct is misplaced. In Loving, an interracial couple argued that Virginia's antimiscegenation statute, which precluded "any white person in this State to marry any save a white person, or a person with no other admixture of blood than white and American Indian" (id. at 5 n 4), violated the federal Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. The statute made intermarriage in violation of its terms a felony carrying a potential jail sentence of one to five years. The Lovings"a white man and a black woman"had married in violation of the law and been convicted, prompting them to challenge the validity of the Virginia law. The Supreme Court struck the statute on both equal protection and due process grounds, but the focus of the analysis was on the Equal Protection Clause. Noting that "[t]he clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate all official state sources of invidious racial discrimination in the States," the Court applied strict scrutiny review to the racial classification, finding "no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification" (id. at 10, 11). It made clear "that restricting the freedom to marry solely because of racial classifications violates the central meaning of the Equal Protection Clause" (id. at 12). There is no question that the Court viewed this antimiscegenation statute as an affront to the very purpose for the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment"to combat invidious racial discrimination. In its brief due process analysis, the Supreme Court reiterated that marriage is a right "fundamental to our very existence and survival" (id., citing Skinner, 316 US at 541)"a clear reference to the link between marriage and procreation. It reasoned: "To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes . . . is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law" (id.). Although the Court characterized the right to marry as a "choice," it did not articulate the broad "right to marry the spouse of one's choice" suggested by plaintiffs here. Rather, the Court observed that "[t]he Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations" (id. [emphasis added]). Needless to say, a statutory scheme that burdens a fundamental right by making conduct criminal based on the race of the individual who engages in it is inimical to the values embodied in the state and federal Due Process clauses. Far from recognizing a right to marry extending beyond the one woman and one man union, it is evident from the Loving decision that the Supreme Court viewed marriage as fundamental precisely because of its relationship to human procreation.[10]

Note that the [10] citations are for the case Hernandez v. Robles.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 09:18 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra I strongly desire you in fact to get your wish concerning the California Courts overturning this amendment as the explosion of outrage not only in California but in the nation as a whole should be enough to block state courts in the future from daring to override the laws and the will of the people on the gay marriage issue for a few generations at least.

The next few months should be interesting both for the future of gay marriages but also for the future and the power of state courts.


Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 11:41 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

I sure would do away with a court that would dare to tell it people that they can not amendment their own constitution in ways that the setting judges do not care for.


The California Constitution provides for amendments and revisions. Amendments that do not infringe upon fundamental rights or alter the form of government may be accomplished by a mere majority of the voters. Revisions, however, require a much more deliberative process as set forth in the Constitution itself. Because Proposition 8 eliminates a fundamental right for a disfavored class of people and alters the form of government by negating the ability of the judicial branch to enforce the existing equal protection clause, Proposition 8 is a revision. Because a revision may not be accomplished by a mere majority vote, the Court may declare that Proposition 8 is invalid.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 11:54 pm
@Copper Seth,
Copper Seth wrote:

I just found this on Wikepedia while researching Loving v. Virginia. I'm no legal expert, but check this out...

The Majority Opinion of the New York Court of Appeals in Hernandez v. Robles ....


Proposition 8 does not involve the State of New York. If you want to educate yourself concerning subject matter under discussion, go here:

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/index.htm

Here's the California Supreme Court decision in the Marriage Cases:
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF



0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 12:12 am
@Debra Law,
Debra as I already stated I hope you get your wish and the court block this ballot amendment, sadly I think the court will be bright enough not to do so but we will see.

Do you in fact think that if the court try to pull such an outrage the majority of the people of California will not react with whatever actions it will take to get their beloved right to amendment their constitution by ballot back?

I will even predict that a large majority of the people that did not vote for prop 8 will not be happy with this court power grab.

The whole issue will change from gays rights to married to the right of the voters to amend their constitution. There is no way you or the gay movement is going to win this one in my opinion.

Good luck however.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 12:42 am
Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).

Quote:
These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men. Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942). See also Maynard v. Hill, 125 U.S. 190 (1888). To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.


Marriage is a fundamental right, and the individual has the right to choose his/her marriage partner. The State may not infringe upon that individual choice unless doing so serves a COMPELLING State interest and the infringement is narrowly tailored (necessary) to serve that interest.

Perez v. Sharp (Oct. 1, 1948) 32 Cal.2d 711, 198 P.2d 17
http://www.multiracial.com/government/perez-v-sharp.html

Quote:
The due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects an area of personal liberty not yet wholly delimited. "While this Court has not attempted to define with exactness the liberty thus guaranteed, the term has received much consideration and some of the included things have been definitely stated. Without doubt, it denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint, but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and, generally, to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." (Italics added; Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 [43 S.Ct. 625, 67 L.Ed. 1042].) Marriage is thus something more than a civil contract subject to regulation by the state; it is a fundamental right of free men. There can be no prohibition of marriage except for an important social objective and by reasonable means.

* * *
Legislation infringing such rights must be based upon more than prejudice and must be free from oppressive discrimination to comply with the constitutional requirements of due process and equal protection of the laws.

* * *
Since the essence of the right to marry is freedom to join in marriage with the person of one's choice, a segregation statute for marriage necessarily impairs the right to marry. . . .

A member of any of these races may find himself barred by law from marrying the person of his choice and that person to him may be irreplaceable. Human beings are bereft of worth and dignity by a doctrine that would make them as interchangeable as trains.

* * *
CARTER, J., concurring:

It is my considered opinion that the statutes here involved (Civ. Code, §§ 60, 69) are the product of ignorance, prejudice and intolerance, and I am happy to join in the decision of this court holding that they are invalid and unenforceable.


Similarly, anti-gay marriage laws that prohibit homosexual individuals from marrying the irreplaceable persons of their choice are the product of ignorance, prejudice and intolerance. That is NOT acceptable in this country. How many times does history have to repeat itself before Americans finally learn that majoritarian oppression of disfavored individuals and minorities is immoral and wrong?
0 Replies
 
 

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