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Africa is a dying continent

 
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 01:17 pm
ok
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 03:21 pm
I think I have some idea of where Lash is coming from. A good example of what is happening in Zimbabwe. The president is taking away farms from the whites to give them to blacks without regard to whether the blacks are capable of taking over the farms. Half their population is already on starvation diets, and this land transfer program only increases their problems. It's not only frustrating to observe from the outside, but other African nations are unable to help correct this problem, because they also have their own problems. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the problems they continue to create for themselves. Food assistance programs are being run by the same corrupt government, and the people are not getting their fair share, but the people that support their government are getting access to the food. I'm not so sure American influence can change the whole dynamics of all the crisis being instigated by these tyrant leaders. So again, I ask, where do we begin? c.i.
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 04:10 pm
Whatever happened to the Peace Corps?

I remember long ago, thinking the problems of soil conservation and agriculture were being addressed in a positive way.

Training on how to properly manage land was a good thing, IMO. Basic, and not addressing fairness in politics, war lords and etc (which IMO are the most serious problems), but at least promting independant food sources...

I'd even suggest that Peace Corps volunteers from around the world should set up primary shop in Africa. The problem is that bad.

Birth control should be a foremost addition to the agricultural help.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 05:31 pm
Lash, Birth control education in Africa is useless. They can't even control the spread of HIV/AIDS, because the men do not use condoms - even when they know they are infected. All part of the frustrations. Where shall we begin? Peace Corp is a good idea, but how many are willing to serve in Africa? c.i.
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 05:42 pm
I don't recall why the call to the Peace Corps was so desirable then, and not now...

Missionaries are all over the globe....

But safety is a huge concern and rightly so.

What are your ideas, c.i.?
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Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 05:43 pm
Lash Goth wrote:

Another bunch of people, I bet, who would like to hack us up because of our standard of living. (No, not everyone, but the majority.)


Lash, please define what ratiocination (if any) led you to make the generalized assertion that the majority of the people you demean wish to commit such a barbaric act againts you.

Since you seem to think that the fact that your post reflects an opinion of yours somehow gives you mandate to insult I will be very blunt with my opinion here: I think that was an ill thought, self-centered and thoroughly ignorant comment. A coulple of notches down and all without making a point or even an attempt at one.
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 08:53 pm
Craven wrote:

Since you seem to think that the fact that your post reflects an opinion of yours somehow gives you mandate to insult I will be very blunt with my opinion here: I think that was an ill thought, self-centered and thoroughly ignorant comment. A coulple of notches down and all without making a point or even an attempt at one.


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This has been a test of my ability to simulate PMS without the notoriously mercurial equipment.


I did not read in any Rules of Engagement that all opinions must pass muster with you. I am growing tired of you making it your business to personally insult me. I made no insult to any member of this community and you are making far too many insults to me, for me to continue to be silent.
I have seen far worse statements by others, which you did not find necessary to hold up and use to insult the writer.

If you wish to respond, I think PM would be appropriate.
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Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 09:24 pm
I expressed my opinion about your post. I think it is ignorant and have opined as such. You defended your generalized insult as an expression of your opinion. I have never said your opinions must pass anything. I did not personally insult you. I took vehement and particular exception to what you said. I think it was a gross generalization of a particularly untoward kind.

You stated your right to post your opinions, however disgusting to others, in public. The opinion in question was a revolting generalization.


If I saw another post that I found to be of such base nature I'd likely respond there as well. I had not taken exception to your posts today till i saw this one. When I so vehemently disagree with the post made in public I will not reply in private.

You disregarded any criticism of the post by saying it was your opinion. When opinions were expressed that it was racist and uncalled for you instructed dissenters to repy to you in private.

I can understand the allure of posting your disagreements to others in public and requesting that they reply in private but I have no personal disagreement with you. I simply find your post to be a gross generalization and demeaning in nature and have added my opinion about it.

I know we have had our differences but you are not being treated any differently. You asked why your words were treated thus and IMO it's because several people have taken strong exception to the expressed sentiment.

Lash, we often disagree. If you find nothing untoward in the sentiment you expressed we simply disagree again. Life goes on, we will probably disagree again one day. And when that day comes please note that I rarely get angry at people. I do become angry about opinions that move me thus and expressing dissent to your opinion is a far cry from requiring your opinions to pass my muster. I'd be very frightened if we were agreeing with each other all the time.


Can we agree to disagree? You think the majority of a people want to commit a barbaric act. I strongly disagree.
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Lash Goth
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 10:05 pm
I think the length and content of your self-important rantings over a few words that contained no insult to anyone speaks loudly and more effectively against you than what I would say.

Far worse has been said with no response from you.

Your refusal to discuss personal matters, which this clearly is, is childish and a disservice to other members of this community.

I defined my explanation to the questionable comment I made, and it was there for you to see. Others did, and the conversation went on. You chose to ignore the explanation and make an issue of what had been explained.

Because you prefer to stir up trouble. I could follow you about and do the same to you. This would be a bad distraction, and cause disruption.

I think you should consider why you are doing what you are doing, before this grows into something much worse.
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littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 10:26 pm
Lash, I really don't want to take sides, my role in life seems to be of a moderators nature. But, you did indeed say something that would be an insult to many in Africa and beyond. And, Craven wasn't the only person here to be offended.
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 10:42 pm
And when you and ehBeth voiced your opinions of my opinion, I apologized personally to ehBeth and offered an explanation of my comment, and stated it was quippy and admitted it could appear brusque and unfeeling.

To which you responded, "OK."

The matter should have ended there, IMO.

What was desired result by dredging it back up?
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littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 10:44 pm
Well, each of us gets to express our opinions and craven hadn't yet....?
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 10:55 pm
If I had left it as it was, with no explanation, I could see that.

Since I did explain, and commented how it could seem rougher than it was meant, it clearly looks like someone spoiling for a fight.

And, I've certainly seen much worse that was ignored or laughed off. I added political commentary juxtaposed to the discussion on the plight of Africa--that they could easily increase in anti-American sentiment if our humanitarian aid ceases. I still don't see anything other than a rather insensitive description in a ultra-sensitive environment.

You'd think I'd advocated baby killing or something.

The reaction was personal and over the top, IMO.

And, I hope that is all I feel the need to say about that. (This last sentence is not directed at any person, I'm just tired of explaining.)
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Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 11:10 pm
Lash,
I am not looking to quarrel with you. I stated that I found the post offensive. I stand by that assertion and this does not equate with a wish to stir things up, I have no personal issues with you that I am aware of and what you choose to do (re stalking) is your prerogative.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer that I simply take issue with your post. What you choose to make of my opinion is beyond my control. I do not have any personal issues with you, passionate dissent in such matters is routine and does not indicate a personal distaste. This too shall pass.
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dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2003 11:46 pm
Little k said " And, Craven wasn't the only person here to be offended."

He sure wasn't!

However - none of this helps Africa.

It would seem to me that it is the countries which colonized Africa - Great Britain, Belgium, Holland, France (North Africa) I am sure there are more which I cannot recall (and the USA, which "mined" Africa for slaves) - and left behind artificial countries, irregardless of tribal and traditional boundaries - which ought to be assisting modern Africa most assiduously. Russia, which also used Africa for ideological purposes, is probably no longer able to assist...sigh.

It is, indeed, a most difficult thing to do. I have a number of friends who were exiled during the struggles in South Africa, and Zimbabwe, who are now ministers in the current governments of those countries (although I fear at least one of them may have been murdered by now, by the current Zimbabwean dictator) - and the twin problems they most feared were tribalism, and sexism.

Tribalism is a clear and horriffic force - horribly evident in places as far flung as the Congo and Kenya - born not only of the intrinsic nature of African society, but also of the appalling carving up of the continent by colonial forces.

Sexism is a less obvious force - but a clear issue defined not only by such people as the women of the ANC (who said they were willing to wait until after the demise of the white-dominated South Africa, but no longer), but by research into health, birth control, and political stability in newly liberated nations. I also think of the fate of friends of mine who worked, in Africa, for organisations like the ANC (as lawyers and such-like) and were forced to flee for their lives, because of anti-white feeling, into the arms of old friends, by whom they were raped, as payment for their freedom to fly home - to look at the fate of women in Africa.

None of this lets European countries,which profited hugely by exploitation of Africa, "off the hook" in terms of working and paying for improvement there.

Many programs exist which can have a positive effect there. Let us all give to them.
0 Replies
 
dov1953
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2003 01:12 am
Please be aware that because I can ask a question does not mean that I am trying to prove an answer. I honestly don't know the answers. Why is it that the richest, most stable, post-industrialized democracies are all "white", and the poorest, most repressive and corrupt societies "black"? I know the answer is not the standard one given; that it's all white peoples fault. "We" are given too much credit on that one. Today, Africa, given free rein for several decades, has only declined in every significant social and economic way. I don't understand. I want to believe that we all as human beings are equal in a most fundamental sense but the facts seem to suggest otherwise. Explain it to me.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2003 10:49 am
dov, You are asking for an answer in summation form that is impossible. There are simply no easy answers. All cultures has its own dynamics for good or bad. If one goes back far enough in every culture, I'm sure it's history is repleat with the same tyranical leadership we see in Africa and elsewhere today. c.i.
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New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2003 10:55 am
Peace Corp in Africa?

By the way, what happened to all the Catholic nuns and missionaries that devoted their hearts and souls to medicating and educating the people of Africa? Cool
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2003 11:07 am
New Haven, There still exists in Africa many Peace Corp volunteers. However, that number is too small to make a major difference to the total population, but does affect small numbers of its people. I met a Peace Corp volunteer on our trip to East Africa in 2001. She's from San Francisco, and taught English in a girls school in Kenya back in the sixties for four years. She loves Africa and its people. When we met her, she had taken the same tour with the same company exactly one year earlier. When she was in Tanzania the year before, the primary school in Karatu was destroyed by heavy winds, and many of the buildings lost their roof. She collected over $1,000 from her fellow travelers before they left Tanzania, and gave it to the school to repair their buildings. She returned to present to the school $4,000 she had collected at home from friends on the very trip I was on. The mayor of Karatu, the superintendent of schools, the principal, and other officials were there to meet our tour group when we arrived at the school. That's when over 550 children came out of their classrooms to sing to our small group. None in our group had a dry eye when they finished singing. After our return from that trip, each one of us in our group received a letter and film from her requesting some more donations for her next trip to Africa. She is but one person, but somebody that has devoted her life to improve some lives in Africa. Unfortunately, not many are doing the same. c.i.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2003 02:43 pm
Dov - look to dlowan's excellent post for answers to your question. We are largely to blame. Yes, the tribal lifestyles of african tribes can be horrifying to us, it is their culture. Unfortunately at this point, we've stolen their resources, squashed their cultures, destroyed their land, ruined the structure of their international relations and then, we walked away. Yes, we've dumped some money and effort into 'fixing' things, but it hasn't gone far and I don't know if it will ever go far.
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