revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 06:26 am
@Brandon9000,
Regardless of past presidents both republican and democrats, the current administration is an example of an administration using extreme right policies coupled with big government in terms of using the government to their own ideological advantage. What we have gotten in return is the list paradose listed with no one being able to refute it plus a housing crises, rising unemployment rates, wages not keeping up with inflation, inflation rising, a credit crises, higher cost of energy, a ballooning deficit which our grandchildren will have to pay for, a dependency on foreign money to pay for wars one of which we had no need to fight and the one did we did to need to fight we are loosing all these many years later after 9/11. McCain plans on continuing ever single policy which has brought us these results. If you like these results fine, weird people are every where I guess, but most of the people which have been polled in these last years do not like the direction the current president has taken.

I am not even going to pretend to be objective nor have I ever.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 06:47 am
Despite Brandon's arbitrary rule of no links, here is a good one in explaining the law behind the scandal. (admittedly a biased source, seems well thought out all the same.)

http://shotgunfreude.blogspot.com/2007/07/hiring-and-firing-us-attorneys-is-not.html

Quote:
Hiring and firing U.S. attorneys is not illegal... unless it is part of a common plan to pursue malicious prosecution.

What is the U.S. Attorneys scandal all about? It is often discussed in terms of a few U.S. attorneys having been fired and a few new ones having been hired, according to political allegiances. Sounds upsetting, but tell us again how that conflicts with the President's prerogative to control the executive branch as he sees fit?

More and more evidence keeps coming out, though, as to what was behind the partisan-motivated hirings and firings: a common plan, orchestrated from the Department of Justice and the White House, to pursue malicious prosecution of Democrats, and to push fraudulent voting restrictions designed to disenfranchise Democratic voters, ironically in the name of cracking down on voter fraud.

We learned that Bush-appointed U.S. Attorney Steve Biskupic brought charges of corruption against the office of Democratic Wisconsin governor Jim Doyle, throwing one of his career civil servants in jail, before the appeals court found the case so baseless that it took the astonishing step of ordering her released immediately after oral argument.

Then we learned that the Democratic former governor of Alabama, Don Siegelman, who was recently sentenced to over seven years in prison on charges of corruption, was apparently the target of malicious prosecution organized by Karl Rove, according to evidence that includes a sworn affidavit from a Republican lawyer (hooray for the highly endangered conscious of a conservative!). This is just beginning to get notice, including by the editorial board of the New York Times. The U.S. Attorney brought more than 100 charges against Siegelman before most were dismissed, and had asked for a sentence of 30 years in prison and a $25 million fine. Compare this with Republican former Alabama governor Guy Hunt, who was prosecuted for a similar crime: the prosecutors sought probation (and he was later pardoned).

Now, the McClatchy newspapers - rapidly establishing themselves as America's new "newspaper of record" - have a terrific piece on the story behind the firing of U.S. Attorney David Iglesias, due in part to his unwillingness to bow to pressure to prosecute cases of voter fraud where he found the evidence to be without merit. And, lo and behold, the point man for pressuring Iglesias, Patrick Rogers, was heavily involved with the nationwide campaign to pass restrictive voting requirements, a campaign celebrated by Karl Rove last year at a conference of the Republican National Lawyers Association.

The scary part? Patrick Rogers is now a candidate to replace Iglesias.

Bonus scary part: one of Patrick Rogers's colleagues at his pro-disenfranchisment group, Cameron Quinn, was appointed last year as the voting counsel at the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division.

David Iglesias happens to have been one of the experts on the subject of voting fraud, and was convinced the evidence did not support any prosecutions for voter fraud, despite Rogers's repeated promptings.

Rogers's group was also responsible for trumpeting allegations that ACORN was engaging in voter fraud in Missouri prior to the 2006 election, in its drive to register poor and minority voters, based on a few workers whom ACORN had already fired - and those allegations were followed up by indictments brought only a week before the election, a blatant violation of the DOJ's policies, by Bradley Schlozman, the interim U.S. Attorney appointed by Alberto Gonzales. This is the same Schlozman who testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that he did not believe this prosecution could have any possible effect on the election.

So, we have:
1. A Bush-appointed U.S. Attorney in Wisconsin pursued what has been effectively identified by the appeals court as a meritless prosecution, against the Democratic governor of Wisconsin, during a close election;
2. A Bush-appointed U.S. Attorney in Alabama pursued a prosecution against a popular Democratic former governor of Alabama that included over 100 charges that were dismissed by three different judges, and that included sentencing recommendations grossly disproportionate to the alleged crime; the U.S. Attorney also is married to a senior campaign official of the Republican governor who defeated said Democratic former governor, based on a controversial recount; a Republican lawyer signed a sworn affidavit that the prosecution was apparently arranged ahead of time with Karl Rove;
3. A Bush-appointed U.S. Attorney in Missouri opened a voter fraud prosecution against Democratic-leaning campaign workers, a week before a close election; and
4. A U.S. Attorney in New Mexico was fired apparently in part for not bringing meritless prosecutions of voter fraud, and the lawyer who repeatedly prompted him to pursue such prosecutions is being considered as his replacement;
5. Carole Lam, the U.S. Attorney in San Diego, was fired after prosecuting GOP Congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham and was preparing to follow that up with prosecutions of his co-conspirators among the Bush administration; etc.

Here is what Congress, the media, and any remaining honest prosecutors need to ask:

Were Karl Rove, Alberto Gonzales, and other officials in Washington organized in a common plan to install U.S. Attorneys who would avoid prosecuting Republicans and who would bring trumped-up, politically timed, or meritless prosecutions against Democrats?

If so, the President's authority to direct the executive branch is irrelevant; anyone involved in such a common plan to break the law would be guilty of a felony.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 06:57 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

You are aware which party got the US involved in Vietnam?


Yes, I am. But I am unaware what that is supposed to mean at this point in time.

Quote:
Anyway, I'll agree with you that split power does seem to lead to better government. Reagan was at his best with a dem congress, as was Clinton with the repubs. They seem to keep each other honest.


Agreed.

Quote:
One of my problems, Duck, is living in CA and watching what one unrestrained party has done to this once great state. From school spending to property rights to crime to livability, things are bad and getting worse with the dems in power.

Schwarzenegger, though registered a repub, is not really opposition after trying to reform the public pension system in the state a couple of years ago and having his hat handed to him.

CA is very lib/progressive, with virtually all state positions filed by dems. The left wing of the party is king here, no moderates allowed. And it shows.

This, at the federal level, where the left would be able to cut our military (again) to fund social programs scares the **** out of me.

Property rights, gun rights, free speech. And taxes? No proof? When has the left NOT redistributed income?


Ok, thanks for telling me where you're coming from.


0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:08 am
I hate to keep interrupting but I am kind of googling answers to brandon's question and I finally found a simple one sentence answer. Apparently it is not illegal hire and fire political appointments in the attorney general office but it is for career attorneys.

Quote:
Political appointees are almost always chosen based on party affiliation, but it is illegal under federal law to base employment decisions for career positions on such political considerations.


http://www.michiganmessenger.com/1631/new-report-sheds-light-on-firing-of-us-attorney-from-michigan
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:21 am
@Brandon9000,
Oh.. so you won't take the word of lawyers at the DoJ when it comes to violations of federal law? If you won't accept their word, I don't see how I can convince you without physically hitting you over the head with their report and the law.

Do you think the DoJ lawyers that created the report lied about the violations of federal law? If you think they lied then I guess it is up to you to prove they didn't.

Your points have been pretty much destroyed because you have provided nothing to back up your position and nothing to refute the report from the DoJ itself. Simply demanding more proof is not an argument. It is denial.
Brandon9000
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:28 am
@parados,
You have claimed that a federal law was violated. You cannot, upon challenge, tell me which law it was. I win.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:41 am
@Brandon9000,

Section 2302 section b of Title 5 quite clearly states.

(b) Any employee who has authority to take, direct others to take, recommend, or approve any personnel action, shall not, with respect to such authority"
(1) discriminate for or against any employee or applicant for employment"
....
(E) on the basis of marital status or political affiliation
...
(10)discriminate for or against any employee or applicant for employment on the basis of conduct which does not adversely affect the performance of the employee or applicant or the performance of others; except that nothing in this paragraph shall prohibit an agency from taking into account in determining suitability or fitness any conviction of the employee or applicant for any crime under the laws of any State, of the District of Columbia, or of the United States;

Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:50 am
@parados,
parados wrote:


Section 2302 section b of Title 5 quite clearly states.

(b) Any employee who has authority to take, direct others to take, recommend, or approve any personnel action, shall not, with respect to such authority"
(1) discriminate for or against any employee or applicant for employment"
....
(E) on the basis of marital status or political affiliation
...
(10)discriminate for or against any employee or applicant for employment on the basis of conduct which does not adversely affect the performance of the employee or applicant or the performance of others; except that nothing in this paragraph shall prohibit an agency from taking into account in determining suitability or fitness any conviction of the employee or applicant for any crime under the laws of any State, of the District of Columbia, or of the United States;

Thank you. I'll take a look.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:54 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

You have claimed that a federal law was violated. You cannot, upon challenge, tell me which law it was. I win.


You win?

Brandon9000 wrote:
if one party lays his argument out clearly, and someone trying to argue an opposing view responds only with irrelevant jibes or insults, it would be the universal verdict that, at least formally, the former party's views have prevailed.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 07:54 am
@Brandon9000,
Are you really this ignorant? You lose, actually.

Quote:
Office of Personnel Management
The Office of Personnel Management took over for the former Civil Service Commission as part of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (5 USC 1101).
The U. S. Office of Personnel Management . . .

Administers a merit system for Federal employment that includes recruiting, examining, and promoting people on the basis of their knowledge and skills, regardless of their race, religion, sex, political influence, or other nonmerit factors.


As for the law itself: Prohibited Personnel Practices

Quote:
(b) Any employee who has authority to take, direct others to take, recommend, or approve any personnel action, shall not, with respect to such authority"

...

(3) coerce the political activity of any person (including the providing of any political contribution or service), or take any action against any employee or applicant for employment as a reprisal for the refusal of any person to engage in such political activity;

...

(6) grant any preference or advantage not authorized by law, rule, or regulation to any employee or applicant for employment (including defining the scope or manner of competition or the requirements for any position) for the purpose of improving or injuring the prospects of any particular person for employment;

...

(10) discriminate for or against any employee or applicant for employment on the basis of conduct which does not adversely affect the performance of the employee or applicant or the performance of others; except that nothing in this paragraph shall prohibit an agency from taking into account in determining suitability or fitness any conviction of the employee or applicant for any crime under the laws of any State, of the District of Columbia, or of the United States;

...


Edit: Parados beat me to it....
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 08:15 am
@DrewDad,
I don't think (3) applies because there is no evidence of an attempt to coerce political activity. (6) is a little vague but seems to be more directed at rewriting job descriptions to promote one person or deny others which I don't think occurred.

People were denied employment or advancement based on a perceived political affiliation based on their outside activities. That is a violation of (1) and (10). Based on the report from the DoJ's investigative agencies, I think there can be little doubt that it was done. Based on the fact that it was NOT one rogue person but 3 with the possible knowledge of 2 others, it makes it hard to argue it wasn't systemic.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 08:25 am
@parados,
(6) specifically includes re-writing job descriptions as a violation of the law, but does not exempt other behaviors.

I included (3) as an example as to the intent of the law. I completely missed (1-E), though.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 09:49 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

You have claimed that a federal law was violated. You cannot, upon challenge, tell me which law it was. I win.


You win?

Brandon9000 wrote:
if one party lays his argument out clearly, and someone trying to argue an opposing view responds only with irrelevant jibes or insults, it would be the universal verdict that, at least formally, the former party's views have prevailed.


Yes, and I stand by that opinion. But stating that the other party has defaulted in the debate is neither a jibe nor an insult, and it's certainly not irrelevant. You and Drew Dad actually have answered my request, and now I need to look at it and think about it, particularly since I'm at my job at the moment.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 10:26 am
@Brandon9000,
I see, so if someone doesn't provide any evidence and doesn't provide anything to dispute the other side's evidence then they get to declare they win if they merely ask for more evidence than was originally provided?

All of this after you claimed that 90% wouldn't hold up to objective scrutiny.


What a crock of BS from you Brandon.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 05:46 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

I see, so if someone doesn't provide any evidence and doesn't provide anything to dispute the other side's evidence then they get to declare they win if they merely ask for more evidence than was originally provided?

All of this after you claimed that 90% wouldn't hold up to objective scrutiny.


What a crock of BS from you Brandon.

And I believe that 90% wouldn't hold up to objective scrutiny, but I never volunteered to disprove every claim personally. I told you to pick your favorite claim of the administration's allegedly disastrous policy's and we'd discuss it, which we are.

As for my statement about winning. In a debate, if one person says that something is illegal, and then refuses to state which law is being violated, even when asked to, it is very reasonable to say that that person has lost the debate, since he refuses to support his own claim. In this particular case, you finally did give the law you claim is being violated, which I will now look at and consider - as I said.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 09:14 pm
@Brandon9000,
I didn't say it was illegal without support. DoJ lawyers said it was illegal in the report on their investigation of actions at the DoJ. I quoted that report. You refused to accept the word of DoJ lawyers without providing anything to dispute their findings. In debate if the DoJ says something is illegal then it is the responsibility of the person disagreeing with the DoJ to provide some evidence why they were wrong. You provided nothing.

When presented with evidence, you didn't refute it. You pretended it wasn't sufficient and asked for more evidence. I pointed out why it was sufficient and you claimed you won because I didn't provide more evidence.

Your argument was bull **** then and it is bull **** now. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that laws were probably violated since the official investigation by 2 separate agencies in the DoJ came to that conclusion. You didn't do any objective scrutiny. You dismissed the evidence out of hand without any scrutiny at all.
Brandon9000
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2008 04:50 am
@parados,
When accusing someone of violating a law, one must say which law. Merely stating that some smart people agree with you doesn't free you from the requirement to specify which law was violated, which, when backed into a corner and trapped like a rat, you finally did.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2008 08:47 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon, If the DoJ lawyers said it was "illegal," what laws do you need cited since that was stated in the report?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2008 09:12 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

When accusing someone of violating a law, one must say which law. Merely stating that some smart people agree with you doesn't free you from the requirement to specify which law was violated, which, when backed into a corner and trapped like a rat, you finally did.

I see. So when your newspaper reports that someone was charged by prosecutors with a crime, you don't believe them because they didn't cite the law.

You are acting like an idiot. DoJ lawyers made the statement. I merely reported what THEY said.

But, just because you say it needs to be done that way, doesn't make it so. In honor of YOUR requirement that the law must be specified. Please provide us with the source that says what you just claimed is true. Just your saying it doesn't make it so. Please provide the law, rule or other authority that says I have to specify which law was broken when reporting what a lawyer said. You might want to stay in your corner like the rat you are until you do provide that evidence. Until you provide the authoritative source that shows what you said you are just blowing smoke out your ass.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2008 09:15 pm
@Brandon9000,
But you still have not provided any objective scrutiny. You have only subjectively required that I provide even more support for facts I presented while not providing any of the objective scrutiny you claimed you would provide. No dispute of my facts, no scrutiny at all in fact.
0 Replies
 
 

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