0
   

Suggestion: Open (not anonymous) thread voting.

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:05 pm
Ebrown" wrote:
I do not want to filter at all based on other peoples' interests.

Good, cause you dont have to. Momentary bug aside, your preferences allow you to change your settings so that no thread ever disappears, or so that threads only disappear if they got a net minus-many rating, rather than just a net minus-some. You only need to change it once, and then you're rid of your complaint here.
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:06 pm
Cyclo wrote:
as others have expressed similar opinions to mine, I hardly think that my belief that the thumbs up/down symbol commonly is used as a value judgment, not an administrative tool, is not one held by myself only.

Never said it was. Just said that many, or even most users seem to be using the thumbs in the way Craven described, and used the word games threads as evidence of that. But sure there are others that do share your opinion. And I disagree with them, and I will argue why. Just like you're arguing your case.

Cyclo wrote:
what is the argument against having open voting? I don't see the problem with it. Many other sites which rely upon voting are quite open.

That argument has been made several times already on this thread, at some length.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:06 pm
@old europe,
Did you try this?

I just ran this experiment in the "able2know - all topics" tag, then with the "Politics" tag and the "Science and Mathematics" tag.

The results are far from conclusive.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
They would have seen it at the top of the posting list, for those who use it put new posts on it regularly, and that places it at the top of the list. This gives people the chance to evaluate for themselves whether or not they want to post in it. Forcing people to search around for posts discourages this.


?

At the top of which posting list would new users have seen a barely active thread? Can't quite follow you, I'm afraid...
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:07 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Good, cause you dont have to. Momentary bug aside, your preferences allow you to change your settings so that no thread ever disappears,

They fixed the bug sometime between yesterday evening and noon today (Eastern Standard Time). Thank you, hamsters!
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:12 pm
@ebrown p,
I thought we were talking about a new user who is just visiting the [home page] of A2K.

---

But I think the same point can be made about the specific tags. The better a thread, the more (regular) users will assumedly tag it. Tags that are more often used, in turn, will assumedly rise up in the tag cloud.

Eventually, you might see a more specific tag rise up very high in the tag cloud, and you might see very relevant topics displayed when clicking on that tag.


I do acknowledge that that's just speculation at this point. After all, the new system has only been online for a couple of days, and not everybody has gotten into tagging all his threads...
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:15 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
New users would see those threads which were most active by default.

Is activity a better measure than voting? They get to see the insult thread and the non-official insult threads....
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:16 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
Quote:

They would have seen it at the top of the posting list, for those who use it put new posts on it regularly, and that places it at the top of the list. This gives people the chance to evaluate for themselves whether or not they want to post in it. Forcing people to search around for posts discourages this.

?

At the top of which posting list would new users have seen a barely active thread? Can't quite follow you, I'm afraid...


In the old days, a new user would have self-selected a forum of interest, navigated there, and then seen the most recent posts on the top of the list. The fact that only a few people are interested in that post would not affect the ability of the new viewer to see that they are talking about it. This allows topics which may only interest a few people to keep going over time, rather then to waste away in obscurity.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:21 pm
@old europe,
Quote:

I do acknowledge that that's just speculation at this point. After all, the new system has only been online for a couple of days, and not everybody has gotten into tagging all his threads...


And some users such as myself intend to tag as little as possible, for I am not interested in tagging.

This whole system has been lifted from a completely different model and been applied to a bulletin board system. I have never seen another system modeled this way. I don't know how it is going to turn out by I am concerned that the quality will diminish over time for various reasons I've outlined in this thread.

I am forced again to ask the question: what is the purpose of A2K? It seems to have changed with the update.

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:23 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
1) Separate the "this topic doesn't interest me" button from the "this is offensive/idiotic/annoying" button.

2) Make the identity of down-thumb donors public.

3) Enforce down-thumb etiquette with the loss of rating privileges for egregious thumb abuse.

And this would fix things, how?
1) I, personally, don't think this would improve the ability to measure the quality or interest of a thread.
2) IMO, this would just turn into either witch hunts or bicker-fests. "You abuse the thumb!" "No! You do!"
3) Who's going to do the enforcing? They already don't have enough moderators. And the site needs to either grow or it will die (if I read between the lines correctly).

Quote:
Your McDonald's point is a good one... I have always found quality at A2K to be significantly higher than that of fast food.

And you, as a consumer, are concerned about quality. Craven, as our metaphorical Ray Kroc, is concerned about pulling people to his site.

(I'm not hating on Craven. It's a metaphor.)

And I could say a lot about McDonald's quality control and focus on a consistent consumer experience, but I won't.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
They would have seen it at the top of the posting list, for those who use it put new posts on it regularly, and that places it at the top of the list.

Not true. On the old Able2Know, what you found on the homepage were featured threads. (The same applied to Abuzz, the site from which A2K got most of its members in its early days.) I might add that the threads were featured, not by the community, but by an anonymous, unaccountable team of moderators. If you forgot this in less than a week after the old site expired, it clearly shows that you were quite capable of navigating around the site's default view.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:25 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:

And you, as a consumer, are concerned about quality. Craven, as our metaphorical Ray Kroc, is concerned about pulling people to his site.


Having a bunch of stuff which is acceptable yet bland, while discouraging stuff which is unpopular but not necessarily bad (such as science discussions, as was used as an example earlier) - is that a great way to get people to your site? And more importantly, is it a good way to keep people at your site?

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't know, but I'm willing to find out.

I think this format has a better chance than the last did.

I think Craven's given a lot of thought to it, and I think his model is better than anything I see in this thread.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:28 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
In the old days, a new user would have self-selected a forum of interest, navigated there, and then seen the most recent posts on the top of the list.


Which essentially assumes two things:

- that the new user would have bothered to navigate his way through the home page/forum page to find this forum of interest
- that, just when he had found this forum of interest, somebody would have posted to the sparsely-populated thread (because otherwise the sparsely-populated thread with only three posters who occasionally post to the thread would have fallen back to page 7 of the self-selected forum)


Quote:
The fact that only a few people are interested in that post would not affect the ability of the new viewer to see that they are talking about it.


Sure it would. In a "New Posts" kinda view, the sparsely-populated thread would reside somewhere in the obscurity of page 2+ of the forum of choice. No new user ever goes there.


Quote:
This allows topics which may only interest a few people to keep going over time, rather then to waste away in obscurity.


I disagree. Granted, a new user might have gotten to see the sparsely-populated thread by pure chance.

However, in the new system, I would think that even a sparsely-populated, but exceedingly interesting thread might be lifted from obscurity simply by getting tagged by lots of other posters. Even if they don't post to the thread, but merely read along.

This, to me, seems to have the advantage that an exceedingly interesting thread might end up displayed more prominently, by virtue of being tagged, than it was before.

(However, as I said to ebrown - that's mere speculation at this point. Just seems to make sense to me.)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:29 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

They would have seen it at the top of the posting list, for those who use it put new posts on it regularly, and that places it at the top of the list.


Not true. On the old Able2Know, what you found on the homepage were featured threads. (The same applied to Abuzz, the site from which A2K got most of its members in the early days.) I might add that the threads were featured, not by the community, but by an anonymous, unaccountable team of moderators. If you forgot this in less than a week after the old site expired, it shows pretty clearly that you were quite capable of navigating around the site's default view.


I didn't forget it, I merely gloss over the featured threads; they were a feature (lol) of the old site which didn't make much sense to me, so they were ignored. I didn't have to change a button or setting to do so, either.

I find it to be deliciously funny that many of the same people who spouted the 'just ignore threads/posters you don't like!' line in the old A2K now are singing a different tune, and encouraging a system in which it's not enough to ignore those you don't like, you have the power to actively hurt other people's ability to see them as well. You can say all you want that people can change their settings, but is there any evidence that people are a: interested in having to change their settings, or b: that they will know to do so?

I have read several posts from frustrated users in the last few days. Most of you guys just don't seem to give a damn about their frustration, and that's sad, really. Instead of being critical of them, you might want to try listening and looking at things from the point of view of people who aren't as good at navigating around websites or learning new systems as you are.

Cycloptichorn
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
- Is it necessary to use a symbol which is stigmatized in the minds of some and downright offensive to large segments of the world's population?

This is the only complaint here that I can at least understand. I'm not bothered by the thumbs, but if others are, then yeah sure - if people can think of an equally simple, but less emotive icon than the thumb, why not. Cant think of one from the top of my head (as someone versed in usability, you'll know that you want an icon, not text). But if someone comes up with one that would work, I'm sure Craven & co would happily consider it.

Quote:
- In the long run, will sparsely-populated threads die as they are seen by less and less people?

This, on the other hand, is a stretch. I mean, sparsely-populated threads always died when they were seen by less and less people. There is no difference between the old and the new site here.

On the old site, where topics were ordered simply, and exclusively, by latest post, threads that were posted to rarely would quickly sink down (and off) the first page, and once they did, would be even less likely to be posted to at all, and sink away altogether. I started plenty of threads on the old site that got zero or one response before they disappeared from the front page listing in their forum and would die.

In fact, as people will start using tagging more and more (and this is hardly an a2k thing, you will see ever more sites organised by tagging, but you know that), such threads might well stand a better chance of surviving on the new site.

Huh, you might say - how? Well - imagine I start a thread about Dagestan. Nobody's interested in Dagestan. Well, maybe a couple of people. Three, say.

On the old site, I would post a thread about Dagestan, and I'd have to choose - Asia forum? Or International News forum? Since the Asia forum is mostly about culture and tourism, I'd go for International News. There, one or two of those three people would respond, if they would happen to come across it in time, and then the thread would die. And soon enough slip off the first page because of all the threads about Iraq or whatnot.

I could revive it if I had something new to say, but since there's only a couple of people interested, chances that they would catch it before it was pushed out again would be small. And I would give up. From then on, nobody would ever find it again unless they happened to use the search function to look for "Dagestan".

Now, new site. I start a thread about Dagestan. I tag it "Dagestan", "Asia" and "International news" and "ethnic groups" and "history". I can do that now! I can post it, so to say, in three of the different forums we used to have. Plus, by tagging it by more specific words, I get to post it in specialist forums that would, by my act of tagging, be automatically created.

Result? It would likely remain at or near the top of the Dagestan tag list forever - the equivalent of the old search result. Anybody who at any point came across it can tag it Dagestan as well, or Asia or whatever, and forever see it pop up in their My Tags page if a new post was made - the equivalent of posting "bookmark". Except that now, you can undo your choice if you're no longer interested.

People who are not interested in any random International news thread from around the world will sooner find my thread under that tag than before, as they thumb all the ones on, say, Iraq out of the way and this one stays near the top for them longer.

People who are foolish enough to want to follow my topics, can now click on my profile and get an instant overview of them, Dagestan and all. Not possible on the old site.

I'm sure I'm still forgetting features. One thing that has to be made easier is to search and browse the tags, but Craven already said that's a priority for them.

So I dunno. It doesnt at all seem obvious to me that my thread would do worse under this system than under the old one. I think it would benefit.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I have read several posts from frustrated users in the last few days. Most of you guys just don't seem to give a damn about their frustration, and that's sad, really

"Several" posts?

Anyone with a legitimate navigation difficulty was helped, from what I saw.

Folks (OK, not me.) were even patient with the "screw you guys, I'm going home" crowd.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Thomas wrote:
On the old Able2Know, what you found on the homepage were featured threads. (The same applied to Abuzz, the site from which A2K got most of its members in the early days.) I might add that the threads were featured, not by the community, but by an anonymous, unaccountable team of moderators. If you forgot this in less than a week after the old site expired, it shows pretty clearly that you were quite capable of navigating around the site's default view.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
I didn't forget it, I merely gloss over the featured threads; they were a feature (lol) of the old site which didn't make much sense to me, so they were ignored.

Exactly!!! And that's just what users of the new system will do with "sort-by-most-votes" if that feature "doesn't make much sense" to them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:37 pm
@nimh,
Only if people know to look for it in the first place. I agree that changes to the current system would help this.

For example, if I'm a new user to the site, and I'm interested in finding posts about 'dagestan,' how would I know to do that? It wouldn't be on the popular tags list. There's no search function to find tags or posts, which you suggested a new user would use. Sure, you can type tags into the address bar, but let's be serious, people aren't going to do that on a regular basis. This is an issue which could be fixed with some new features, I would say.

Something else just occurred to me, and it's interesting. The 'word game' topics are all being voted down, because their appearance on the main page is a hassle to posters who are uninterested in them. But change to 'new posts,' and the majority of the new posts are in... the word game category. It seems that we have a group of users who are quite active, yet have been shunned by the rest of us by voting down their favorite topics. In fact, one of the major complaints on day zero and one is 'where did the word games go!?!!?!' If the point is to get traffic to the site and to serve ads, so money can hopefully be made, then why would you want to discourage an extremely prolific group of posters from continuing to do so?

I am once again forced to ask: what is the purpose of A2K?

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 05:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I am once again forced to ask: what is the purpose of A2K?

The purpose of A2K is the same as the purpose of life, the universe, and all the rest: whatever you make of it.
0 Replies
 
 

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