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Advice Please - Andy (CWS)

 
 
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:29 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

I'd be glad to, right after you do the same and tell us what Kinetico model you use and how frequently it will regenerate.


No, tooo late for that, brother. You are the one who accused me of misrepresenting this info to my customers.

Nah, you can't get out of it that way. Besides, YOU SAID you have Kinetico's numbers and have already put in--what was it?--enormous amount of time and came up with a calculation that suits you just fine. What can I add? You have already stated what the Kinetico can do. So that is a done deal and, thus, becomes a moot point, Gary.

Tries these numbers for a comparison:
Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

Listen, it's the Holidays and I am enjoying time with my friends and family surrounded by good cheer and celebrations. I can understand if this is getting frustrating for you as you just keep cut-n-pasting and avoid answering a very basic question concerning the equipment you deal with everyday (READ: should be ale to calculate off the top of your head).

But, you see, I am not as smart as you nor do I understand your extremely high efficiency settings. That's why I look forward to your simple, clear calculation.

Just pretend I am your customer and you want me to know how much salt my family would use in a year given the following data:

4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

---I just thought of something...maybe there's is another reason you can't do this. Uhm? Naah, can't be true!
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:42 pm
@Andy CWS,
Andy CWS wrote:
No, tooo late for that, brother. You are the one who accused me of misrepresenting this info to my customers.

So you do have internet customers. Does your boss and Kinetico know that?
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 04:34 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Gary Slusser wrote:

Andy CWS wrote:
No, tooo late for that, brother. You are the one who accused me of misrepresenting this info to my customers.

So you do have internet customers. Does your boss and Kinetico know that?


More non-sense. What makes you say such dumb things. You're losing it man!!!

I am still looking for you to describe the results of the softener you recommend. Are you going to do that?
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 01:33 pm
@Andy CWS,
Recall that a few years ago when we spoke on the phone that you told me you were selling Fleck twin tank softeners to people in and out of your employer's territory. Recall we had the same supplier and rep that you ordered them from. And now from what I hear you must be selling to forum posters through PMs and email.

All the while you refuse to total up the salt dose lbs for a given period of time, like a week or 8 days so the person can compare total salt use.
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 04:32 pm
@Gary Slusser,
And now from what I hear you must be selling to forum posters through PMs and email.
From what you HEAR? What are you talking about? How can you possibly assume this? Hearsay, rumors, innuendos. Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

All the while you refuse to total up the salt dose lbs for a given period of time, like a week or 8 days so the person can compare total salt use.
Here we go again, you are making the same accusation. Totally baseless and false. I challenge to defend your accusation. I was hoping you could be a man of your word. If not, then knock it off!

You can't get an very fair salt use in a 7- or 8-day period. But due to your constant accusations and slander, I asked you a simple question, which you refuse to answer, or are afraid to answer. You claim your softener uses one pound of salt a day---under what conditions? Are you talking about 70 grains, 35 grains, 10 grains...what are you talking about? 2 people, 6 people...what are you talking about?

Without a baseline, your numbers are nonsense. So a laid down a scenario of typical water use and averaged out for one year. THAT is a fair analysis for salt efficiency and I may now understand your continued relunctance to provide a clear response. Instead you try to turn the tables aqnd avoid and sidestep your false accusations and dubious calculations.

You already declared what a Kinetico can do; are you taking that back now? Let's get on board here. Aren't you unable to defend your words? Your responses speak for themselves.
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2009 10:51 am
@Andy CWS,
Andy CWS wrote:
You can't get an very fair salt use in a 7- or 8-day period. You claim your softener uses one pound of salt a day---under what conditions?

So a laid down a scenario of typical water use and averaged out for one year. THAT is a fair analysis for salt efficiency. Instead you try to turn the tables aqnd avoid and sidestep your false accusations and dubious calculations.

Oh but I do size most of the softeners I sell to a salt efficiency that uses 1 or less lbs of salt per day based on an average of 8 days between regenerations.

I'm beginning to believe that you don't know how to do that Andy. That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

You laid down your scenario in attempt to distract from the fact that Kinetico salespeople do not tell their prospective customers how frequently the Kinetico softener will regenerate but say it is more efficient than a regular softener based on the few lbs and gallons of water used PER regeneration. Just this week I've had 3 people that had Kinetico out say that is what they were told. I've been hearing it for many years plus I competed with two local Kinetico dealers within 20 miles of me for 13+ years. I've seen hand written notes they left with the person. And IMO that makes most Kinetico salespeople scam artists. And BTW, that says nothing about the equipment, just how it is sold. IMO that tactic is dishonest.

You have said that it doesn't matter how frequently the Kinetico regenerates, that is factually wrong and blatantly untrue.
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2009 12:01 pm
@Gary Slusser,
quote="Gary Slusser"

Oh but I do size most of the softeners I sell to a salt efficiency that uses 1 or less lbs of salt per day based on an average of 8 days between regenerations.
My, my, my. Under what conditonss? How many people? What hardness? How much iron? Tell me how you can get one pound per day out of system like I went to last night? 65 grains hard+1.5 ppm iron, five people (five days a week) and an additional 3 people on weekends?

Are you going to tell me you can size it to use 30 pounds of salt a month? Am I being ridiculous? Yes, I am because generalizing like you are doing is also so ridiculous.

Again, under what conditons are you continuously claiming you can set your softener for less than one pound per day? There, you made another clear statment and I would like you to clarify how that is done. Just throwing numbers out means nothing without knowing the treatment conditions. Nothing at all.

One pound of salt!!! Whew!

interested2learn
 
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Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 02:37 pm
@Andy CWS,
What is safe levels of Chlorine. They said we have 1.5ppm and 13 gpg, also what size softner should I use for a family of 4?
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 07:20 pm
@interested2learn,
I'm not really sure of your question about safety? What hazards are you addressing. What safety issues concern you? Are you interestin removing it?

What softener technology are you referring to? Different types would require differnet sizes.

Do you want to cut corners and go cheap or prefer quality and efficiency?
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:00 pm
@Andy CWS,
Andy CWS wrote:
quote="Gary Slusser" Oh but I do size most of the softeners I sell to a salt efficiency that uses 1 or less lbs of salt per day based on an average of 8 days between regenerations.

Andy CWS wrote:
My, my, my. Under what conditonss?

MOST of the softeners I sell.
Joethewaterguy
 
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Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 01:25 pm
@Gary Slusser,
I've seen some of the rainsoft systems set at 4lbs of salt every 7 days and they've been working at that rate for years. city water, 8 x 44 tank, .5 cu' resin. they are usually set at 6-8 lbs for once a week. of course, more people means more regens per week, using more salt. bigger tanks 10 x44 (.75cu') and 10 x 54(1cu') require more salt too . But for 3-4 people with .5 cu' , 1 lb of salt per day is about average.
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Joethewaterguy
 
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Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 01:29 pm
@Andy CWS,
I believe he said "most of the softeners" , the case you state is well above the norm, and probably falls into the "other" softener range , "other being not most.
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 02:31 pm
@Joethewaterguy,
Joethewaterguy wrote:
I've seen some of the rainsoft systems set at 4lbs of salt every 7 days and they've been working at that rate for years. city water, 8 x 44 tank, .5 cu' resin. they are usually set at 6-8 lbs for once a week. of course, more people means more regens per week, using more salt. bigger tanks 10 x44 (.75cu') and 10 x 54(1cu') require more salt too . But for 3-4 people with .5 cu' , 1 lb of salt per day is about average.

I believe he said "most of the softeners" , the case you state is well above the norm, and probably falls into the "other" softener range , "other being not most.


Thanks, Joe. You make a fine attempt to describe conditions that may or may not use a pound a day of salt.

One of the key factors in determining efficiency is in fact the hardness. I didn't see you mention that factor. I have worked areas where average hardness was 2--5gpg, and 14gpg would seem like a dream. In Indiana, the hardness averaged 18--25gpg and was very consistent over a very wide range. Here in Ohio, we range from 6-130gpg! Well water from one location can change radically in fewer than a hundred yards away.

I know that if someone works an area where water conditons are relatively mild and consistent, then equipment used and installation procedures become fairly common. Water usage and equipment life can be predicted based on current usage and history.

This doesn't imply that serious work to meet goals is any less important. If you work an area where water conditions can vary vastly, then your 'norm' becomes anything but.

Working on the national plane, also, causes one to throw the 'norm' idea out the window. I don't think I suggested anywhere the 'average, typical or norm' when I was seeking information.

In deed, many conditions would easily result in far less than one pound per day--on average over time. No argument there, never has been. My query related to how to determine efficency at a given condition/usage and not what is a norm or of what one does the 'most'.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Joethewaterguy
 
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Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 03:06 pm
@Andy CWS,
Hiya Andy,
How the heck are you? What I was trying to do was for you to get off of this vendetta about 1 lb of salt per day thing . I thought that this was a forum for people to ask advice, not listen to professionals whine. I'm sorry that I didn't mention hardness, usually around here, municipal/ city water is between 8 and 12 grains hard, although the other day I saw the local water source at 28gpg, oh that was in Bridgeport Ohio, just across the river from Wheeling and they're being told that they are providing soft water. I've actually seen wells change when they are only 100' apart. One can be ok at no iron and 0gpg hard, with a touch of iron bacteria, and 100' away that well could be 25gpg and 2.5ppm iron. Most wells in my area require more than just a conditioner.

So the situation that you described uses 2 lbs of salt per day with a regen every 3 days. Or use a bigger tank and more resin, but the end result is the same, if it's sized properly, they will all use about the same amount of salt.
I'm in a pretty clean area, strip mines everywhere, high sulphur content in the coal that hasn't been stripped. Most of the systems that I work on have more than just a conditioner. About 35% of my customers are on city water. Oh yeah, I'm in western Pa.
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 12:17 pm
@Joethewaterguy,
Joe, Andy's problem is that he sells Kinetico and doesn't know much other than Kinetico model and disc numbers and their softeners' salt setting - LBS USED PER REGENERATION.

As to salt efficiency (total lbs used per day/week/month/year, he, ANDY, has said it doesn't matter how frequently the softener regenerates.

Andy... the conditions are the hardness plus any iron etc. that is in my customer's water. BTW, fairly frequently my softeners use only a half pound of salt per day on a 7-9 day regeneration schedule. From what you say, you don't know how I do that; and you claim to be a PROFESSIONAL and a WQA Certified Water Specialist II....
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 08:07 pm
@Gary Slusser,
quote="Gary Slusser"
Joe, Andy's problem is that he sells Kinetico and doesn't know much other than Kinetico model and disc numbers and their softeners' salt setting - LBS USED PER REGENERATION.
That's not a problem, first of all. I do know how to evaluate and set non-Kinetico equipment. What I can't figure out is why you can't come out and describe the equipment that you sell. I know how many pounds per regeneration Kinetico units use by their settings and wondered deeply why you quoted ridiculous settings for a Kinetico to try and prove your point of comparison???

I have been asking you to explain what you sell and you continue, up to and inclusive to your most recent post, refuse to do so. That has become expected.


As to salt efficiency (total lbs used per day/week/month/year, he, ANDY, has said it doesn't matter how frequently the softener regenerates.
Well, in fact that is a very false statement. I never said that so please stop misquoting me. Whether it regenerates once a year or hundred times, the efficiency is the same. So it doesn't matter how often it regenerates, it will be consistent in its grains/pound efficiency. But the same total pounds regardless of how many times it regen..., that's nuts!!!

To imply that I would use the same salt if a softener regenerated 20 times year as the same one that regens 40 times a year, as you seem to make me appear saying, is utter nonsense.

So, to your above statement that I would use the same total salt no matter how times it regens is wrong and perplexing.


Andy... the conditions are the hardness plus any iron etc. that is in my customer's water.
Great, you are moving in the right direction, whew! finally! Now the next step, which I have been asking for a long time, is to attach actual numbers to those hardness and iron quanitities. And, as I have said before, over and over, results mean nothing without a base to draw those conclusions. I find it hard to believe you just can't (or don't) understand that basic point you lack in your argument. Maybe someday.


BTW, fairly frequently my softeners use only a half pound of salt per day on a 7-9 day regeneration schedule.
Hello!!! I have no argument or debate on that. Softeners can use even far less---that's right, far less salt than that under given conditions. It's difficult to react to inane statements.

From what you say, you don't know how I do that; and you claim to be a PROFESSIONAL and a WQA Certified Water Specialist II...
From what I say? Can you elaborate on that? What is that I have said that could draw you that conclusion? But that's OK, Gary, I have no expectation you would.

When did I claim to be a professional? 'Professionals' never claim they are, they just behave as such. I would be very weary of going into a doctor's office and listen for 20 minutes how professional he was and wanting me to look at all his diplommas, etc. That would make me very suspicious. My doctors behave like doctors.
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 09:05 am
@Andy CWS,
Andy CWS wrote:

quote="Gary Slusser"
Joe, Andy's problem is that he sells Kinetico and doesn't know much other than Kinetico model and disc numbers and their softeners' salt setting - LBS USED PER REGENERATION.
That's not a problem, first of all. I do know how to evaluate and set non-Kinetico equipment.

Then answer your own question instead of asking me to do it for you.

Andy CWS wrote:

quote="Gary Slusser"From what you say, you don't know how I do that; and you claim to be a PROFESSIONAL and a WQA Certified Water Specialist II...

From what I say? Can you elaborate on that? What is that I have said that could draw you that conclusion?

When did I claim to be a professional? 'Professionals' never claim they are, they just behave as such.
[/b][/quote]

How about every time you type Andy Christensen, CWS-II in your posts? BTW, I see you don't type that in posts like this where you act like a little kid; such as in this thread.
Andy CWS
 
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Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:01 pm
@Gary Slusser,
Thank you for your excellent reply. Well done, as usual.
Gary Slusser
 
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Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 08:58 am
@Andy CWS,
Andy CWS wrote:

Thank you for your excellent reply. Well done, as usual.

Thank you for the sarcasm but to proof my point, see how you forget the Andy Christensen, CWS-II when you aren't being Professional?

BTW, I see you became Scuba's favorite good buddy, congratulations; now that wasn't that hard was it?
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