I'm out the Cave!

Of course, Plato's cave is a metaphor for the illusion of common sense perception. But in a sense, there is no illusion that is not ultimately real (e.g., a mirage is a real mirage; it's just not a pond). The buddhists say that nirvana (enlightenment) equals samsara (delusion). There is only one Reality. In a sense we cannot escape Reality (or enlightenment). We just want it to be "better."

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@JLNobody,

i remember studying meditation a few times..

where the ultimate goal of it was to bring your mind to a complete "nothing"

rather strange IMO..

but ultimately very very very hard to accomplish.

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'I'm in the here and now and I'm meditating/And still I'm suffering but that's my problem,' . 'Enlightenment, don't know what it is'
Van Morrison

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@dyslexia,

Of course, we are always in the here and now whether we like or not; there's nowhere else to be. The problem, I think, is the illusion of being there and then rather than here and now.
BTW, David, "meditation" is never about trances, about being so absent- minded that we have no consciousness; we just take a break from attachments and dualistic choice-making. We experience our unity with the World. Bliss.
Dyslexia, yes, there is suffering but that's only a problem for our false egos.

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@existential potential,

existential potential wrote:

I'm pretty sure that I see people in the cave all the time,
and I just want to throw something at them to get their attention.
I would like to think that I could just get one person out of the cave,
that would make me feel to good for a number of reasons,
I think to myself if only they could appreciate what I appreciate.

What do u appreciate ?

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Of course, we are always in the here and now whether we like or not;
there's nowhere else to be. The problem, I think, is the illusion
of being there and then rather than here and now.

BTW, David, "meditation" is never about trances,
about being so absent- minded that we have no consciousness;
we just take a break from attachments and dualistic choice-making.
We experience our unity with the World. Bliss.

Dyslexia, yes, there is suffering but that's only a problem for our false egos.

I am a little bit at a loss to understand, JLNobody.

I take it that u r addressing ME,
inasmuch as I am the only David on A2K, so far as I am aware,
however, I do not see that I have posted to this thread before
your post in the nested quote.

I was wondering what moved u to address me on this particular point ?

David

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@najmelliw,

Maybe that was slightly judgemental, but so far as you were talking about discovering an unhappy reality that you did not want to be in, and instead chose to go back to a “happy place”, that could be understood to refer to people who take drugs to escape reality, rather than enjoying reality.

However najmelliw, I listen to music, and I agree that it does transport you to a “happy place” if you want to call it that. However, I don’t like to understand music as an escape, but I think that we are as a society more inclined to escapism than we realize.

With a stronger desire for something to, occupy our minds rather than engage them, there is a lack of nuance as to what we give our minds over to. Something as valuable as the mind, yet many people give their minds to undeserved objects. It has become part of society’s character to be a society of habitual escapists, choosing to acknowledge only when one wants to, and then quickly throwing oneself back into ignorance. Escapists guided by perpetual distractions.

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@existential potential,

This behavior that you brand escapism, which you describe very elegantly I might add, has been bred into humanity for the last century or so.
It's the consumer mentality, a state of mind that promotes the shallow flirting with many ideas, rather then the solid engaging of one. It's one of the traits of this society that I, for one, abhor.

I listen to music because it allows me to explore my imagination. And I freely confess that I love dwelling in my fantasies. Call it my perverted form of meditation. As long as it keeps me from molesting my veins or my liver, it suits me right to the bone! Smile

I think this discussion ties in strongly with all sorts of spiritual thinking/meditation and even religion. It would not be a bad thing, IMHO, if more people in our societies took the time and effort to think a bit more about subjects like that.

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@najmelliw,

najmelliw wrote:

Quote:

This behavior that you brand escapism,
which you describe very elegantly I might add,
has been bred into humanity for the last century or so.
It's the consumer mentality, a state of mind that promotes
the shallow flirting with many ideas,
rather then the solid engaging of one.
It's one of the traits of this society that I, for one, abhor.

So according to u,
we all have a duty to select one idea and become obsessed with it ?

`

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@OmSigDAVID,

Please dont twist what I say. It doesn't harm people to think things through, but any kind of obsession makes things only worse, not better.

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@najmelliw,

there is a Quote that I read and it was about choosing one idea and sticking with it. it said things like, "choose one idea and become obsessed with it, live it, breath it, dream about it". if you want to have a serious grasp of anything, persistence and obsession are key.

however David, that is not what najmelliw said, he/she never said that that is what you must do.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Sorry, David, I confused your name with that of Ogionik.

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@existential potential,

Some very nice writing and thinking here.
I particularly like EP's notion about getting others to appreciate what he appreciates. This is not the forcing of EP's beliefs onto others: rather , it expresses his desire to share enjoyments/joys with others.

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@najmelliw,

najmelliw wrote:

Quote:
Please dont twist what I say.
It doesn't harm people to think things through,
but any kind of obsession makes things only worse, not better.

U have made me the victim of twisting.
The record speaks for itself.

David

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@JLNobody,

yes JL, the joy of sharing the things that you enjoy with others has a very special kind of satisfaction to it, when you both find things that you enjoy. when two people can enjoy each others company, and then refine their friendship even more with shared interests etc; its one of the greatest feelings one can experience.

Nietzsche had something to say about caves as well:
"The hermit...will doubt whether the philosopher could have "real and final" opinions at all, whether behind each of his caves there does not and must not lie another, deeper cave..."

"every philosophy is a foreground philosophy...every philosophy also conceals a philosophy..."

"Beyond good and evil" section 289.

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@existential potential,

Yes, thanks for that, EP. Niezsche always reminds us that all is perspective and interpretation (partial and relative). We never get out of the cave, if that means that shadows are interpretations and objective reality is extra-interpretive or omniperspectival. That's why we invented God, to have a bearer of an omnicompetent perspective: He who does not have to interpret and who sees things from all angles simultaneously.
Neitzsche sometimes described his own views as interpretive and relative to himself, a mirror of his own mind rather than a picture of the World.

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@existential potential,

Yes, thanks for that, EP. Niezsche always reminds us that all is perspective and interpretation (partial and relative). We never get out of the cave, if that means that shadows are interpretations and objective reality is extra-interpretive or omniperspectival. That's why we invented God, to have a bearer of an omnicompetent perspective: He who does not have to interpret and who sees things from all angles simultaneously.
Neitzsche sometimes described his own views as interpretive and relative to himself, a mirror of his own mind rather than a picture of the World.

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@JLNobody,

so we're not interpreting and describing "world", so much as we're interpreting and describing perspective.

what does this mean for science?

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@existential potential,

Nothing in my opinion.

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@existential potential,

EP, as I see it, science is also interpretive, but that does not mean that its interpretations are not heuristic and practical. I do not think of Science as something that is in touch with Reality compared to interpretive philosophy and art, which is mere Fantasy. It's ALL human construction. Moreover, all scientific conclusions/interpretations will be surpassed by other interpretive conclusions.

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I'm out the Cave!

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