I'm out the Cave!

Hi Queenie

What was the nature of the cave you escaped from?

I think Plato's cave was much more entwined with the physical world than what I imagine you are referring to. I tend to think the 'caves' I've escaped from are in fact 'russian dolled' inside larger caves.


Bigger cages, longer chains.

To use similar words as comedian Bill Hicks....

Some people, when they come out of the cave, turn back around and try to help others out of the cave as well, having realized that everything in the cave is just a mirage of the truth. Some try to open our eyes and still our fears, saying that it doesn't matter, it's all just a mirage.

And we.... kill those people...

I'm pretty sure that I see people in the cave all the time, and I just want to throw something at them to get their attention. I would like to think that I could just get one person out of the cave, that would make me feel to good for a number of reasons, I think to myself if only they could appreciate what I appreciate.

Don't forget you can leave part of you in the cave, and sometimes you visit the cave without knowing it, and other times you think you are out of the cave, without knowing that you are just in a drafty part of the cave...etc.

also, sometimes you can even deceive yourself about emerging from the cave at all, when really you are still exactly where you thought you left.

At first I thought it was my job to try to get people out of the cave much as a new vegetarian passionately throws away all of his leather belts and shoes, but temperance and logic have shown me that I'll never be able to.

But, with what I believe, it doesn't matter. Each soul is on its own path and answers only to itself. Once the physical body dies, so does the cave. We're all granted access the same knowledge set when we die. Since it is the goal of the soul to experience, its simply that those caved souls won't further their earthly relationship. It is not my moral duty to repair whatever [religion] is blocking their enlightenment.

Hinge, I greatly agree with the russian doll metaphor. Maybe I'll keep popping out of more caves in certain areas. I hope so.
I want to expand my mind as much as possible, and I think that keeping an open mind about how 'out the cave' you are is the key to unlocking doors.

The human mind exists by simplifying things in order to make sense of the world, and to some extent the caves in which people live in are a mechanism for survival. There must be a limit to how much it can conceive.

A lot of my influence happened because of a amazingly bad drug experience I had a few months ago now, which had a lot of paradoxical elements. That expanded my mind more rapidly than anything has before (although many would argue that it is not valid means), i've been meaning to make a post about it.

now i gottago read that again.

i dont think i did read it, i cant recall it at all.

S'good to hear from you queenie, thought you'd dropped off the planet. Yep the human mind sure does some bizarre things to force patterns on the chaotic and unmanageable. I guess the best you can do is be aware that your mind may be doing that in any given situation. Kind of weird to be using your mind to track your mind's limitations, hey?

I never had a mind-altering drug experience, but the experiences I have had do tend to make me think the mind is a complicated machine that houses the mind with varying degrees of efficiency. And the condition of either (brain or mind) affects the other.

The Pentacle Queen's comment is very Nietzschean.

I like Vikkor's perspective: "Don't forget you can leave part of you in the cave, and sometimes you visit the cave without knowing it, and other times you think you are out of the cave, without knowing that you are just in a drafty part of the cave...etc."

I left the cave some years ago, but found myself in an outdoor cave. Since then I hold that to know one is asleep is kind of awakedness.

Thanks JL, I know very little of Nietzsche, but would like to, which of his works would you recommend?

Looking back to my original post I don't believe I didn't include that. 'I'm out the cave!' does smack of a certain arrogance of opinion, which is the last thing I wanted to convey. This last year, and especially in these last few months I've changed so much, and with each realization and each change, it's if a layer of film has peeled off the top of my head, allowing me to think clearer. At the time I wrote this post I had a solid feeling that I was definitely 'out' and part of that was to do with the fact I knew that there really is no 'out' and you're always 'in' in some form or another.

I think the recognition of being 'in' is an important one, because it's to do with the placement of your thoughts. Less open minded people, perhaps people who believe their thoughts objectively see each step out of the cave as a new unquestionable correct perspective, therefore their inability to see themselves as still 'in.'
So the paradox is...
If you think you're in you're out,
... but if you think you're out you're in.

Oh and hey Hinge!
Nah, I've been here all along!
Do you think it is actually attainable that we can track the limits of our mind with our mind?

It sounds counter-intuitive, but I've been wrong about so many things in the past and then learnt more and recognised where I went wrong, so in effect I guess I am tracking the limits of my mind with a limited mind.

Pentacle Queen, one has to read virtually all of Nietzsche to have a decent sense of his perspective. A good head-start on that process can be got from a work by Walter Kaufmann (the jewish scholar who saved Nietzsche from the Nazi reputation his sister had created for him):

Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist. 4th ed.
Walter Kaufmann
Princeton Univ. Press 1974

"So the paradox is...
If you think you're in you're out,
... but if you think you're out you're in."

Good, PQ. But I also like the paradox that we are always BOTH in and out: When we think about our experiences (dualistically) we are "in" the cave; when we just are our experiences (non-dualstically) there is no cave--and no "us".

I can sort of relate to what your saying PQ. in the last year or so, my entire perspective has broadened and I have really become a different person. and now when I look back at what I used to think and the way in which I thought I realize that there was this internal struggle going on in my mind which clouded my thoughts. now I am seeing things more "objectively" than I have ever done before, and have complete control over my thoughts, which a year ago I could not have conceived.

It's great to witness this process of (younger) people growing.
I DO believe that this process is furthered by the way we are writing down our ideas on A2K. I find out what I think to a large extent by reading what I write.

JL i couldn't agree more, really. I think that A2K plays a massive part in my thinking process, and writing ideas down leaving them up for criticism or encouragement seems to solidify them in my mind.
It's nice you said that it's good to see people grow, and I like the way that most people tolerate that on here- rather than the 'you're just a kid- you don't know ****' attitude i find other places.
And if I may say without sounding too gushing- I like your opinions, they seem to be a further evolved version of mine (from what I can see). Your posts on the absolutes thread were of a lot of value to me.



Can you just run this past me again? Sorry. Are you saying that the conception of our experiences is what puts us in the cave so to speak? Is it possible just to 'be' our experiences? If one was to be 'just' his or her experiences is that not also a form of cave?

JLNobody wrote:
"I find out what I think to a large extent by reading what I write."

thank you for sharing that with us. that to me seems invaluable, I think everyone needs to do that.

People, take note.