Reply
Wed 23 Jul, 2008 09:34 am
I have a question about something that probably goes to ethics, so I think it is part of philosophy debate.
I have some holiday time left and my gf has not, since she has already used her holiday for vacation with her Mom. I want to go somewhere to the beach like in Italy or Spain... I thought I would go alone but later I thought it might be fun to go with a woman friend of mine. She agreed but I said I will check if it is okay with my girlfriend. My gf did not like the idea. SHe does not know the person and thinks it is okay to go with a guy, not a woman. Clearly, she is afraid I would end up having sex with the woman. It is not my intention, I just want to spend the time with a friend.
Now the questions are - is this about a level of conservatism versus liberalism? Is there no sexism involved? Is a relationship something where friendship is prevented or actions are prevented when they would be an opportunity for sex?
I told her that if I cannot go, then it seems it would be fair if she does not visit her man friend in Berlin for a week sometime. She said she thought we would both visit him. I said it would be okay if she goes there alone.
She said she would have to deal with his obvious sexual interest / they are very good friends but also both know he is interested sexually. She said
it would be difficult for her to keep him off her all the time.
I don;'t understand why ppl worry so much about sex, I would be cautious if some disease was involved or injury. But what is so harmful about sex, I don't know. By which I am not saying I want to have sex with the woman that I wanted to spend holiday with. I was going to promise to my gf that I would not have sex with the woman, period. I agree that the idea that my sweetheart is having fun sex with another person is a bit painful - because if she falls in love, she will continue the affair and start a whole array of cheating strategies. Or leave me.
I think for a relationship, most people will agree that sexual cheating is not okay. There are couples where cheating is not something wrong, they both agree it is okay to have more partners and sex is just one of many activities they share together and with others, like going out dancing.
For my gf cheating is not ok. I think it is because in a conservative environment, it is something forbidden. It is forbidden because traditionally, sex was connected to pregnancy, so sex would mean getting pregnant with the sexual partner. So cheating on somebody means potentially leaving him or her. Sex is also a symbol of devotion, only you are the one, only you are someone I love and I confirm this with having sex only with you. So these things are very very strong in most people and feeling bad about these things is usually called jealousy.
We are jealous when we are afraid we are not loved any more. But very mature people will not be afraid that they are not loved, right? But such people are rare. Only when such two people begin a relationship, they are perfectly free to spend time any way any style with other friends. If you love me, ok, if you leave me, ok.
So I think I cannot expect my gf to be this mature and free. Who is?
I think it is natural for her to be jealous. But on the other hand, she lets me spend time with women without being there and checking. So it is probably a level of liberalism that is important. She is very liberal, but not totally liberal.
Is there an ex - hippie, one of you guys? How did it work that everyone could sleep with everyone? No jealousy was involved? Were you so philosophically sure that free love is right that you didn't care?
I am not a hippie and I just want to spend time with friends, be it a man or a woman, but I don't want to hurt my gf. I also feel there is potential for me and her to mature a bit more.
I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
Mame wrote:I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
that's interesting, thanks
I have just googled some infidelity, cheating, extramarital sex etc. and came across "emotianal cheating" or "emotional affair" or "romantic friendship".
I think that is something my gf - not knowing the terms - is afraid of. What if I begin to like the woman more than her? What if I have more fun talking to her and spending time than with her? What if I will try to look great while I will not try so hard with my gf?
Well, my dear gf, only if you knew. Yes, in the past, I was interested in such
affairs, as I was not very happy in our relationship. There was something missing. But more I know you, more I love you and care about you and respect you. No woman no matter how great has a chance to outshine you.
But it is true, that I could have loads of fun - without sex - with the woman on holiday. I notice I like people more and more and especially I enjoy meeting interesting women, interesting personalities of women. I cheat emotionally all the time as there are so many women I really like very much. But only one of them is the only one, the one I am commited to.
Maybe, maybe, not sure, the more she is sure about my commitment, the more relaxed she will be about me meeting other women.
The problem is that naturally, when a man meets an interesting woman or vice versa, very often, not always, some physical attraction appears. ANd then it is quite often: I should not, I should not, you should not, we should not, stop.. ok, that is enough, sorry, okay, no problem, no I mean, ok, don't worry, no...
That is why partners are afraid of sexual cheating as much as emotional cheating I guess.
Re: Freedom in a relationship
stach wrote:I have a question about something that probably goes to ethics, so I think it is part of philosophy debate.
I agree that it is an ethical question, and I believe only an ethical question, that my personal opinion is: it is not all about oneself, if one understands ethics.
I'll try to keep this short, but having done extensive (not necessarily scientific) research on this social anomoly I'd like to respond.
It boils down to your relationship and its comfort zone. Make sure there are no double standards. That is not to say the "rules" can't be different for both of you, just make sure that the way she expresses love with her and her friends isn't more imbalancing than the way you express love with your friends and vice versa.
I am in a polyamorist relationship and I am a firm believer that there is no universal right and wrong, but that doesn't mean that fallible humans like myself and my wife can't commit acts that cause pain or fear within our relationship.
My wife and I are not jealous people. She and I are SO confident in our love for each other that it wouldn't matter if she went to Belize for a week with an insanely hot guy friend. Even if she had sex with him, it wouldn't negate the fact that I know she loves me more than anything in the world, but there are boundaries. If she went away with someone for three years its obvious that I would start feeling like he was more important than I, and I would begin to feel jealousy. Why? Because I would start to fear that he was better than I and she was choosing to ditch me.
So, your level of confidence in each other's love should be the guide. If she doesn't feel comfortable with your going away with a woman, then I might start questioning how confident she feels in your love for her. In that situation, there are three possibilities: 1) you aren't accurately showing her the true level of your love for her, 2) she isn't acceptive of your accurate depiction of your love for her [often driven by fear or inadequacy on her part], or 3) one or both of you are being driven by a religio-societal based paradigm in which spending time with someone of the opposite sex is considered an impropriety or taboo.
In the case of #1, step up your game. Make sure you are capable of accurately identifying what is in your heart and then make sure she is getting the message. In the case of #2, its possible that you may have to chip in a little extra so that she is placated sufficiently in your commitment. The offshoot to #2 is that if her inability to see your devotions stems from an internal insecurity, an external damage, or an emotional dysdevelopment, you may not be able to ever make her understand your true depth of emotion. At that point you'll need to weigh the investment versus the benefit. I hate to make it sound so scientific, but if you spend your days trying to prove to her that you love her, and she spends her days talking about how she's been hurt before and can't trust you, you'll have to measure the cost of submitting yourself versus the benefits of keeping this girl. In the case of #3... don't talk to me. I refuse to give advice on this topic because I've left these paradigms behind so long ago that they have no relevance to me. Relationships based on society's expectations (which are directly derived from religion in most civilizations) are so doomed to failure that I refuse to even discuss them. Your relationship is between you and your partner. If you let one ounce of society dictate what is acceptable between you and that other person, then you might as well resign the commitment now.
Scenario 1 is shame on you. Scenario 2 is shame on her. Scenario 3 is shame on both of you.
Your relationship with your partner is sacred ONLY to you. As soon as you apply any correlation between your relationship and any other paradigm, you have replaced one "desire" of your relationship with a "should." Instead of "this is what I WANT to do," you replace it with "this is what society has taught me I SHOULD do." At that point, your relationship is doomed to failure. You are living up to society's expectations and not each others'.
Talk it out. Discover not only whether or not she is cool with this female friend, but ask her why not. There is nothing more rewardind (to me) than openly disussing and celebrating how two individuals become compatible. You might skip ahead 20 steps in your relationship by being candid instead of waiting for a casual hint and the vague response. I've been with my wife for 15 years, and I recently learned a HUGE thing about her that I shared but we were both too afraid to discuss. In one 20-minute conversation, we stepped years ahead in our love.
That is one of the problems with society today. We spend so much time honing our responses to be something that keeps the other person. It starts at the very first minute you meet. She says she's big on recycling, so you (having no objections to it) play up some recycling you've done in your life. All of a sudden you have announced your willingness (to yourself) to alter your actions in order to please this gal. If you land this chick, you would buy a recycling bin as a step to maintain the relationship. Then, as you continue through the relationship, more and more things happen and you both give in to the point where you both can find a critical mass of acceptable compatibilities. The question then becomes... would you have chosen her if you knew from the start that you would become a recycling vegetarian had that been lain on the table at the start.
I digress.... If you are firm in your commitment to your girl, you know you won't violate those terms with this female friend, and you are passionate about it, then make it known. Her inability to let you do it stems from her insecurity. Its like the government taking away your guns... they're too afraid you'll commit a crime with it that they want to ban them. In the case of relationships, its far more affirming if you can give your partner a gun (let you go away with the gal) and have you not kill things (come back unspoiled).
But, in both of those situations, the main catalyst is trust; the olive branch that she may never see again.
Personally, some of this could be ascribed to morals, but I also think that all people are different.
I would have no issue with my girlfriend being jealous of me going over to Italy with another girl (especially one she didn't know), just as I would have no problem if she wasn't jealous - whatever she feels, her feelings are right for her, they are good, and they have a validity.
The issue isn't what she feels, but what her feelings mean to you.
If you think that it means you can't be yourself, then let her know, and go over. If you think her feelings are such that you would split up, and you don't want to split, you act according. If you think you would split, but to be true to yourself and your beliefs you feel you should be free to go over with a female friend...then you need to sit down and have a long talk, listenning carefully to both sides.
As an example of the continuum of human nature (which extends across many subjects/values etc)
(the percentages aren't necessarily right btw...actually completely made up by me, just to illustrate)
10%lesbian...25%bi girls....30% hetersexual...25% bi men...10% gay
In the realm of sex, you'll also find girls (haven't asked guys) who, in a 3some would have a guy and girl (and these girls often think sleeping with two guys nasty)...and a girls who would prefer 2 guys (who think that sleeping with a girl in any form is just wrong)
Then you have ones that are into BDSM, Auto Eroticism, Toys, being pee'd/poo'd on, bestiality, Swinging, and all sorts of other stuff...and for them it is right/fun etc
...the point being - we vary a lot in sexual nature, and it's not just down to morals.
curtis73 wrote:I'll try to keep this short, but having done extensive (not necessarily scientific) research on this social anomoly I'd like to respond.
It boils down to your relationship and its comfort zone. Make sure there are no double standards. That is not to say the "rules" can't be different for both of you, just make sure that the way she expresses love with her and her friends isn't more imbalancing than the way you express love with your friends and vice versa.
I am in a polyamorist relationship and I am a firm believer that there is no universal right and wrong, but that doesn't mean that fallible humans like myself and my wife can't commit acts that cause pain or fear within our relationship.
My wife and I are not jealous people. She and I are SO confident in our love for each other that it wouldn't matter if she went to Belize for a week with an insanely hot guy friend. Even if she had sex with him, it wouldn't negate the fact that I know she loves me more than anything in the world, but there are boundaries. If she went away with someone for three years its obvious that I would start feeling like he was more important than I, and I would begin to feel jealousy. Why? Because I would start to fear that he was better than I and she was choosing to ditch me.
So, your level of confidence in each other's love should be the guide. If she doesn't feel comfortable with your going away with a woman, then I might start questioning how confident she feels in your love for her. In that situation, there are three possibilities: 1) you aren't accurately showing her the true level of your love for her, 2) she isn't acceptive of your accurate depiction of your love for her [often driven by fear or inadequacy on her part], or 3) one or both of you are being driven by a religio-societal based paradigm in which spending time with someone of the opposite sex is considered an impropriety or taboo.
In the case of #1, step up your game. Make sure you are capable of accurately identifying what is in your heart and then make sure she is getting the message. In the case of #2, its possible that you may have to chip in a little extra so that she is placated sufficiently in your commitment. The offshoot to #2 is that if her inability to see your devotions stems from an internal insecurity, an external damage, or an emotional dysdevelopment, you may not be able to ever make her understand your true depth of emotion. At that point you'll need to weigh the investment versus the benefit. I hate to make it sound so scientific, but if you spend your days trying to prove to her that you love her, and she spends her days talking about how she's been hurt before and can't trust you, you'll have to measure the cost of submitting yourself versus the benefits of keeping this girl. In the case of #3... don't talk to me. I refuse to give advice on this topic because I've left these paradigms behind so long ago that they have no relevance to me. Relationships based on society's expectations (which are directly derived from religion in most civilizations) are so doomed to failure that I refuse to even discuss them. Your relationship is between you and your partner. If you let one ounce of society dictate what is acceptable between you and that other person, then you might as well resign the commitment now.
Scenario 1 is shame on you. Scenario 2 is shame on her. Scenario 3 is shame on both of you.
Your relationship with your partner is sacred ONLY to you. As soon as you apply any correlation between your relationship and any other paradigm, you have replaced one "desire" of your relationship with a "should." Instead of "this is what I WANT to do," you replace it with "this is what society has taught me I SHOULD do." At that point, your relationship is doomed to failure. You are living up to society's expectations and not each others'.
Talk it out. Discover not only whether or not she is cool with this female friend, but ask her why not. There is nothing more rewardind (to me) than openly disussing and celebrating how two individuals become compatible. You might skip ahead 20 steps in your relationship by being candid instead of waiting for a casual hint and the vague response. I've been with my wife for 15 years, and I recently learned a HUGE thing about her that I shared but we were both too afraid to discuss. In one 20-minute conversation, we stepped years ahead in our love.
That is one of the problems with society today. We spend so much time honing our responses to be something that keeps the other person. It starts at the very first minute you meet. She says she's big on recycling, so you (having no objections to it) play up some recycling you've done in your life. All of a sudden you have announced your willingness (to yourself) to alter your actions in order to please this gal. If you land this chick, you would buy a recycling bin as a step to maintain the relationship. Then, as you continue through the relationship, more and more things happen and you both give in to the point where you both can find a critical mass of acceptable compatibilities. The question then becomes... would you have chosen her if you knew from the start that you would become a recycling vegetarian had that been lain on the table at the start.
I digress.... If you are firm in your commitment to your girl, you know you won't violate those terms with this female friend, and you are passionate about it, then make it known. Her inability to let you do it stems from her insecurity. Its like the government taking away your guns... they're too afraid you'll commit a crime with it that they want to ban them. In the case of relationships, its far more affirming if you can give your partner a gun (let you go away with the gal) and have you not kill things (come back unspoiled).
But, in both of those situations, the main catalyst is trust; the olive branch that she may never see again.
Thank you very much for your detailed answer. I talked about it some more with her and she told me - after I reassured her that I love her and how great she is and nobody is as great as her - she told me that she would feel sorry I would experience great things with someone else and that she should be the only woman that experiences those things with me when traveling. She seems to be jealous of something like that, not sex.
It is kind of childish, I don't know. I am not sure if it is possible to reassure the partner that the love is so great that I can do anything with another woman - it is possible if the partner is already very mature, really, I don't know. At the same time, although your theory works for you, it might not work for other people. It would be great if it did, though.
vikorr wrote:Personally, some of this could be ascribed to morals, but I also think that all people are different.
I would have no issue with my girlfriend being jealous of me going over to Italy with another girl (especially one she didn't know), just as I would have no problem if she wasn't jealous - whatever she feels, her feelings are right for her, they are good, and they have a validity.
The issue isn't what she feels, but what her feelings mean to you.
If you think that it means you can't be yourself, then let her know, and go over. If you think her feelings are such that you would split up, and you don't want to split, you act according. If you think you would split, but to be true to yourself and your beliefs you feel you should be free to go over with a female friend...then you need to sit down and have a long talk, listenning carefully to both sides.
As an example of the continuum of human nature (which extends across many subjects/values etc)
(the percentages aren't necessarily right btw...actually completely made up by me, just to illustrate)
10%lesbian...25%bi girls....30% hetersexual...25% bi men...10% gay
In the realm of sex, you'll also find girls (haven't asked guys) who, in a 3some would have a guy and girl (and these girls often think sleeping with two guys nasty)...and a girls who would prefer 2 guys (who think that sleeping with a girl in any form is just wrong)
Then you have ones that are into BDSM, Auto Eroticism, Toys, being pee'd/poo'd on, bestiality, Swinging, and all sorts of other stuff...and for them it is right/fun etc
...the point being - we vary a lot in sexual nature, and it's not just down to morals.
I think my girlfriend is potential all kinds of sexual ideas, but because of her background she sticks to the most ordinary, accepted activities.
I think it would take about twenty years to make her realize she would enjoy swinging for example. I think all people have sexual fantasies but most of them supress them in real life.
Mame wrote:I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
If you have a guy friend, he is sexually attracted to you. That's how it works.
blindsided wrote:Mame wrote:I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
If you have a guy friend, he is sexually attracted to you. That's how it works.
You must be all of 17.
There's a difference between finding someone attractive and wanting to have sex with them.
Bella Dea wrote:blindsided wrote:Mame wrote:I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
If you have a guy friend, he is sexually attracted to you. That's how it works.
You must be all of 17.
There's a difference between finding someone attractive and wanting to have sex with them.
Plus, there is another level, finding someone not very attractive, not wanting to have sex with them and still love the person. I have a woman friend who is definitely not my type, but I enjoy talking to her, having fun,
we both love music, listen to it and discuss it and we are very close friends, but I am not interested sexually at all. It is ok with my gf who believes that sex is not part of this friendship. I am 41 and she is about 60.
By the way, the problem has disappeared as the friend I invited to join me
found the situation too complicated and decided to travel alone. Maybe I and the friend missed the opportunity to have fun and share something, but well,
you cannot have everything. I am going to enjoy the solitude. If you happen
to be where I am, if you see a single guy on the beach reading a book, you can join me, no matter what age or sex. We can go snorkeling and underwater dancing and underwater peoplewatching etc.
Bella Dea wrote:blindsided wrote:Mame wrote:I have several male friends who I spend a fair bit of time with, one on one. Some are in a relationship, some are not.
I would have no problem going on a holiday with any of them (they'd be great travelling companions, I suspect) and if my partner wanted to go on a holiday with a female friend, it wouldn't bother me a bit. I'm not interested in any of my male friends sexually and if they are attracted to me they certainly haven't let me know (nor do I want to know), so I don't see what the problem is.
Either you trust someone or you don't. If you don't trust each other (or if she doesn't trust you), I wouldn't recommend straining the relationship by going off with a friend of the opposite gender.
If you have a guy friend, he is sexually attracted to you. That's how it works.
You must be all of 17.
There's a difference between finding someone attractive and wanting to have sex with them.
You must be a woman, therefore you have no say in the matter.
blindsided, have you met Primotivo? He is your alter-ego.
Neither of you are qualified to enter into discussions about women, so the bottom line is: YOU have no say in the matter.
Watching blindsided instruct Mame.
Yeah, I'm pulling up a chair, too.
I do not believe blindsided intended to present a female viewpoint.
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace