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Art or Kiddy Porn?

 
 
lezzles
 
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 08:40 pm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 4 • Views: 11,231 • Replies: 39
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 08:53 pm
I don't think of it as porn and it could well be art - but I think of it as poor judgement since the child cannot give informed consent, whether the public sees it, for good or ill, as either of them. This is similar to some other bruhahas of similar issues in the art photography world.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:03 pm
I recently read a novel by Dani Shapiro, entitled "Black and White", on this very subject.

It was told from the point of view of the now adult daughter who was photographed by her famous artist mother, in the nude to about the age of 14.

It was a story of violation and apprehension for the protagonists own daughter, who looks very much like her mother at that age, who occassionally gets stares from strangers, recognizing the same face from years ago.

What I got out of the book was the selfishness of the photographer mother for putting her art ahead of considering the long term view of how this was going to effect her family.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:29 pm
It's difficult not getting into semantics as I don't think art and porn are mutually exclusive terms. I think some porn could be considered art and definitely some art is porn.

I don't find the picture offensive, but it's not appealling either, I actually find the vulnerability disturbing, but that could be knowing the back story.Here it is if you want to look

I think Kev overreacted.

The question is more about exploitation I guess. And when the subject is the daughter of the artist that's an almost unanswerable question in the short term.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 09:57 pm
Quote:
Blanchett steps into nude art row

Cate Blanchett has defended an artist whose portraits of nude children have sparked a censorship row in Australia.

Police shut down photographer Bill Henson's exhibition, seized images and are also considering charging him.

His work, featuring naked 13-year-olds, was condemned by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd as "revolting".

But in an open letter, Blanchett and 42 other leading arts figures said the action risked damaging Australia's cultural reputation.

'Social freedom'

"The potential prosecution of one of our most respected artists is no way to build a creative Australia and does untold damage to our cultural reputation," the letter said, addressed to Australia's environment minister and the premier of New South Wales state.

"We should remember that an important index of social freedom, in earlier times or in repressive regimes elsewhere in the world, is how artists and art are treated by the state.

"We wish to make absolutely clear that none of us endorses, in any way, the abuse of children," they said.

"Henson's work has nothing to do with child pornography and, according to the judgment of some of the most respected curators and critics in the world, it is certainly art."

I gave my reaction, I stand by that reaction and I don't apologise for it and I won't be changing it.

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd

The exhibition at the Roslyn Oxley9 Gallery in Sydney was shut down by police before it could even open last week after some people complained about photographs of naked 12 and 13-year-old boys and girls.

Police seized 20 photographs from the gallery, most of them of a 13-year-old girl.

They said were seeking to interview the subjects of the photos and their parents and were still investigating whether the photographs violate obscenity laws.

'Innocence'

Prime Minister Rudd has stood by his criticism saying: "I gave my reaction, I stand by that reaction and I don't apologise for it and I won't be changing it."

"I am passionate about children having innocence in their childhood," he said.

Australian child advocacy group Bravehearts labelled the photographs as child pornography and exploitation and have called for Henson and the gallery to be prosecuted.

Two other galleries in New South Wales state have since removed works by Henson from their walls.

Henson, 52, has not spoken publicly since the controversy erupted.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7423571.stm

Should be fine. I suppose next we will be raiding the art galleries and taking away all paintings ever done of nude children. Our culture has gone nuts.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 10:03 pm
Quote:
The young girl whose naked photo appeared on the cover of an arts magazine, sparking a new controversy, has defended the picture, saying she is proud of it.

Do these photos go too far? See what other ninemsn readers have said on the issue below.

Art Monthly Australia magazine sparked fresh outrage over naked images of children by publishing an image of a six-year-old Olympia Nelson on its July cover and two shots inside.

The magazine's editors said the images were chosen as a protest against the recent furore over similar pictures by artist Bill Henson.

NSW police seized a number of Mr Henson's photographs featuring near-naked or naked children in recent months, but were returned to a Sydney art gallery without charges being laid.

NSW Community Services Minister Kevin Greene said he would refer the magazine to the classification board.

The shot of Olympia was taken in 2003 by her mother, Melbourne photographer Polixeni Papapetrou.

The now 11-year-old said she did not believe the photograph amounted to abuse and was upset with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who said he hated the shot.

"I'm really, really offended by what Kevin Rudd had to say about this picture," Olympia told reporters outside her Melbourne home, accompanied by her father, The Age art critic Robert Nelson.

"I love the photo so much. It is one of my favourites, if not my favourite photo, my mum has ever taken of me and she has taken so many photos of me.

"I think that the picture my mum took of me had nothing to do with being abused and I think nudity can be a part of art."

Professor Nelson said the family had no regrets. The photograph was a great work of art and there was nothing pornographic about it, he said.

"(It) has nothing to do with pedophilia. The connection between artistic pictures and pedophilia cannot be made and there is no evidence for it. No one's producing any science," he said.

"People are losing their cool over this matter."

He said the magazine cover was "a risk worth taking".

"I think we have to defend the dignity of children's nudity ... otherwise we are in for a culture where you can't expose children in any circumstance because someone might take some joy in looking at their bodies."

However, the magazine has been criticised by politicians and child protection advocates.

Bravehearts executive director Hetty Johnston said artistic merit should not override the rights and protection of a child, and called for clearer laws on the issue.

"When those two things collide we have to err with the children, it has to be in the best interests of the children," Ms Johnston told the Nine Network on Monday.

"We need to put a line in the sand because clearly some of those in the arts world can't do that and say this is where you don't go, this is a no go zone."

Head of Photography at the Australian National University (ANU) said the magazine had a duty to cover the Bill Henson saga.

"The original Bill Henson photographs have been found to be OK," Dr Martin Jolley told ABC Radio.

"These are significant works of arts and they're contributors to the national conversation about the world that we are creating for our children.

"If you are the editor of a magazine which is meant to be reporting on Australian Art ... you would be derelict in your duty if you didn't actually discuss the debate."




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=592895
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 10:17 pm
Chai wrote:
I recently read a novel by Dani Shapiro, entitled "Black and White", on this very subject.

It was told from the point of view of the now adult daughter who was photographed by her famous artist mother, in the nude to about the age of 14.

It was a story of violation and apprehension for the protagonists own daughter, who looks very much like her mother at that age, who occassionally gets stares from strangers, recognizing the same face from years ago.

What I got out of the book was the selfishness of the photographer mother for putting her art ahead of considering the long term view of how this was going to effect her family.


That is one scenario, but I can also see that in other individual cases it might conceivably have a positive effect on the child in later life. Trouble is you just don't know until the child is an independent adult and makes that call themselves.

I also think that 13 year olds is different to 6 year olds - but I'm not sure why...

It reminds of the Blind Faith album cover:

http://www.kpbs.org/media/assets/LOCAL-PUBLIC-AFFAIRS/Story/2007/08/Blind-WEB.jpg
Edit [Moderator]: Image converted to a link

The model was a then 11 year old Mariora Goschen. At fifty she said she was pressured by her sister and promised a pony. In the end she got 40 pounds.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 10:34 pm
This slightly describes a bruhaha I was referring to -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Mann
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2008 10:39 pm
ossobuco wrote:
This slightly describes a bruhaha I was referring to -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Mann


The photographer of the Blind Faith cover, according to wikipedia, was also trying to capture that singularity between childhood and adulthood.
0 Replies
 
lezzles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 02:23 am
And there just happened to be a shiny, bright phallic symbol nearby for her to hold in her hands............

Pull the other one it's got bells on it!
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 05:39 am
hingehead wrote:
That is one scenario, but I can also see that in other individual cases it might conceivably have a positive effect on the child in later life. Trouble is you just don't know until the child is an independent adult and makes that call themselves.

I also think that 13 year olds is different to 6 year olds - but I'm not sure why...

It reminds of the Blind Faith album cover:

The model was a then 11 year old Mariora Goschen. At fifty she said she was pressured by her sister and promised a pony. In the end she got 40 pounds.



Since we are dealing with a child, I do not think it's worth the risk that it "might conceivably have a positive effect"....it also might conceivably do a lot of harm.....First do no harm is not just for physicians.

An 11 year old pressured by a person she is supposed to trust?
Being promised a pony to take her clothes off?

That album cover? I find it offensive. I remember seeing it when first came out. I remember feeling embarrassed and violated by it. The girl in the photo is 11? I would have been 10 at the time. It made me feel that if anyone who wanted to could stare at this girls body (who obviously did not give informed consent), what was to keep them from staring at and exploiting me? Of course, at 10, I didn't thing of the word exploiting. It was more in the terms of realizing "Someone could make me do that and I don't want anyone looking at me without my clothes on."

What if my parents or siblings pressured me? Offered me someone I really wanted? As an adult I could say, "I don't care what you offer me, it's my body and I don't wish for anybody at all to look at it" As a 10 or 11 year old, I wouldn't have a concept of anyone walking on the street could come look at me.

I don't think it's the parents right to allow something to happen to their children that they have no idea what the future adult will feel about it.

First do no harm.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 06:55 am
This is a tough one.

First, it was not (as i understand) intended to be sexual. So you can argue its not porn.

However, someone who enjoys little kids (shiver) would probably think it's sexy. (double shiver)

That little girl is just a little girl and probably sees nothing wrong with being naked. And we shouldn't have to tel her there is anything wrong with being naked.

It's those freak weirdos who look at her in a way she should not be looked at that f*ck things up.

I'd not let my daughter do it.

So I guess that's my answer. It's not right.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 06:58 am
My mother has an oil portrait of my sister over her mantle. It was commissioned in Nice, France during the early fifties when my dad was stationed in the Mediterranean.

Actually there are two oil portraits, one of my mother at 26, and the other of my sister at about 4. Both portraits were made from photographs my father gave the artist, The one of my mother is of a young woman wearing a high necked frilly blouse. In the other, my sister is apparently wearing nothing. I have seen the originating photographs and both were closed. The supposed nude portrait of my sister was artistic license by the artist---a practice that at the time was acceptable in the south of France.

Today, apparently this is child pornography. However, my mother nor my sister or my sisters children and grandchildren consider it pornography, because there it hangs on my mothers mantle.

BTW when as a kid I asked my dad about the apparent nudity of my sister, he told me that in the south of France in the late 50's and early 50's small children on the Mediterranean beaches were seldom clothed, mostly because of practicality.

Rap
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 07:03 am
On this same note, it really pisses me off that I am made to feel guilty or wrong for taking pictures of my baby while she is naked. I don't pose her or take sexual pictures of her. I just photograph her while she's in the tub doing baby things, like playing with her ducky or spashing around. I took a picture of her playing naked the other day. She's cute, and innocent and she just happens to be naked. I try to avoid any shots that show her private parts just because there is absolutly no need to include them in the shot. However, even baby butts some times cause an uproar, which is just ridiculous.

I don't share these with anyone and am careful that only family ever see them (because there are all those freaky weirdos out there).

There shouldn't be this problem but there is. And I hate that my daughter will or would feel shame for being a naked little girl because some pervert might look at her.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 08:22 am
After having a couple of my photos described as "too provocative" and "sensual" by people who I respect and who I know have no sexual interest in children, I've thought about this a LOT.

One image was an extreme close up of a young girl, no body showing at all; the other was a medium shot of a young boy that showed his face and bare chest. What the two photos did have in common was the subject was staring directly into the lens and they weren't smiling.

In both cases the parent's loved the photo and absolutely did not see anything sexual in them at all.

So I've concluded that knowing the child makes a huge difference in how you respond to the image - whether it is a portrait or whether it is "porn" (Please note: nobody has ever said my photos bordered on porn.)

So I can understand when it comes to the notorious Miley Cyrus photo or this photo how the family and others that know the child can think we're all crazy to react in a way that suggests the photo is too provocative. People who know the child see the innocence; people who don't see exploitation.

I think Bella has it right -- keep such images of your children for your own collection, don't plaster them inside national magazines. Don't feel guilty about taking them or having them, you know your intent as do the friends and family you may wish to share the photos with.

Just my two cents.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 08:38 am
I understand where you are coming from Bella.

I honestly can't say when I know when there is this magic "cut off" date taking it from ok, to feelings, even vague feelings of not ok.

I'm thinking peds out there are not totally indiscriminate about the age of the child, and although I'm sure it happens, I don't think it's that common to have a thing for pre 1 year olds vs. a 6 year old.

My neighbor had her 2nd child within the last month. We were talking as she was holding him, and she said "All he wants to do is nurse. That's natural though for a young mammel to want to root"

My neighbor is, BTW employed in the mental health field.

At first I laughed, but, you know what? That's exactly was the baby is...A young mammel rooting around. Yes, he's a human, but to him, that isn't so important at that moment, he just wants food, and searches for it.

Taking a nude picture of a young mammel before he's got any desires beyond being kept fed, warm and dry? No problem with that. They are at that point "any baby".

When they are at some indeterminate age where the parent can say "There's a chance that one day this might embarrass my child" I'd rather they err on the side of caution.

The question keeps coming up "What's wrong with photographing a nude child?"

Well....nothing....probably, maybe....hopefully

I'd like to ask the question

What wrong with photographing a clothed child?

For the parents, are you going to be sitting an looking at old photos of your kinds being adorable, clever, silly and say "I sure wish we had more pictures of our kid naked. I mean, look at this picture, wouldn't it be so much better if he had his clothes off?"

Would you grown child look at those photos and think "oh man, I really wish they'd taken this picture of me with my clothes off. This is embarrassing/icky feeling/bringing up memories/disrespectful of how I feel today as an adult, being seen dressed.

As far as the topic here, I wonder how much thought the photographer thought about how her subject would feel about this in 20 years.


My question is, what's wrong with modesty?.....not prudishness, modesty.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 08:42 am
lezzles' source wrote:
"We're talking about the innocence of little children here. A little child cannot answer for themselves about whether they wish to be depicted in this way," Rudd added, as officials said they would review the magazine's funding.


. . . and . . .

Chai wrote:
What I got out of the book was the selfishness of the photographer mother for putting her art ahead of considering the long term view of how this was going to effect her family.


Yup . . .
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 05:25 pm
Quote:
Art or abuse? Fury over image of naked girl

A magazine has reignited debate about the censorship of artworks

By Kathy Marks
Tuesday, 8 July 2008


In itself, the picture is simple. It shows a girl of six in a demure pose, sitting on a rock with white cliffs in the background. Its impact comes from the fact she is naked and the photograph is on the cover of Australia's leading arts journal.


According to the editor of Art Monthly, its latest cover is an effort to "restore dignity" to the discourse about the artistic portrayal of children. To its critics, including the Australin Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, it is "disgusting". What it has achieved is to bring to the boil a simmering row over the difference between art and pornography in a country with a long tradition of censorship.

The debate has been close to exploding since police swooped on a Sydney gallery in May and seized photographs of naked adolescent girls taken by the acclaimed artist Bill Henson. Police quietly abandoned their inquiry a couple of weeks later, having found nothing to justify charges against Henson or the gallery, and the pictures were put back on display.

Art Monthly's cover, published this month with two further photographs of the six-year-old inside, was clearly designed to provoke. It has succeeded, bringing calls for the magazine's public funding to be withdrawn and for new protocols on the portrayal of children in art. While supporters of artistic freedom defended Art Monthly's right to publish, child protection campaigners were affronted and Mr Rudd, referring to such images, said: "I can't stand that stuff... We are talking about the innocence of little children here. A little child cannot answer for themselves about whether they wish to be depicted in this way."

But the controversy was complicated by the intervention of two unexpected players. One was Olympia Nelson, the girl in the photo, which was taken five years ago by her mother, Polixeni Papapetrou. The other was Mr Henson - or, at least, "a source close to him".

Olympia, now 11, said: "I was really, really offended by what Kevin Rudd said about this picture. It is one of my favourites - if not my favourite - photo my mum has ever taken of me."

However, Henson's associate said the artist thought the choice of cover image displayed "a lack of judgement only serving to drive deeper divisions in the community". That comment may say more about Henson's fears of being charged and pilloried as a child pornographer than about his genuine views. Nevertheless, it was grist to the mill of Hetty Johnston, a child protection activist, who said: "When [art and pornography] collide, we have to err with the children. We need to put a line in the sand - because clearly some of those in the arts world can't - and say this is a no-go zone."

But just where that line should be drawn is as unclear as ever. Liberals argue that it all hinges on context and intent - if an artist has no intention of titillating, a work is not pornographic. And there is a difference between posting nude pictures of children online and displaying them in a gallery.

But for Ms Johnston and like-minded people, all nude images of children are sexual and should be banned. To them, Olympia's protestations are irrelevant. She could not have consented to being photographed at six and, at 11, is still not mature enough to pronounce on the rights and wrongs.

Once again, the matter looks likely to end up in the hands of police, thanks to the Opposition leader Brendan Nelson, who has asked officers to investigate. He said: "These people with Art Monthly have sought to... send a two-fingered salute to the rest of the country about the controversy surrounding Bill Henson's photography. I think it is time for us to take a stand."

This is, of course, an age-old debate and one not confined to Australia. It has a long history of censorship, and those old enough to remember books banned in the Forties, Fifties and Sixties could be forgiven a shiver of déjà vu. They included James Joyce's Ulysses, James Baldwin's Another Country, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, Norman Mailer's The Naked And The Dead and, naturally, D H Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover.

The visual arts, too, have come under scrutiny. In 1982, police raided the Sydney gallery of Roslyn Oxley, where Henson's show was to be held, and removed works by a Chilean-born Australian, Juan Davila. His graphic sexual images were said to offend public morals. But the then state premier, Neville Wran, rather more cool-headed than his contemporary counterparts, intervened and the works were reinstated. Police may well scratch their heads about Olympia's photo. Some observers say that only in a climate of moral hysteria could the image be deemed sexually provocative.

Martyn Jolly, head of photography at the Australian National University, defended Art Monthly, saying: "If you are editor of a magazine which is meant to be reporting on Australia on a month-to-month basis, and this has been the biggest thing in Australian art for a long time, you would be [neglecting] your duty if you didn't actually discuss the debate.

"We aren't going to let politicians, who are always wanting to jump on populist bandwagons, dictate what we can and can't show."

The Australia Council, which funds Art Monthly, defended the magazine, saying: "For many years our society has managed to differentiate between artistic creativity and the totally unacceptable sexual exploitation of children."

Artists who shocked with child images

Marcus Harvey

Harvey's portrait of the Moors murderer Myra Hindley, created from a collage of hundreds of copies of children's hand-prints, caused outrage at the Sensation exhibition at the Royal Academy in December 1997. Winnie Johnson, the mother of one of her victims, pleaded for the picture to be excluded. Hindley herself sent a letter from jail requesting thather portrait be removed, out of respect for the victims' families. Despite protests, the portrait remained, until protesters daubedit with eggs and ink.

Tierney Gearon

The American photographer became the centre of controversy in 2001 following complaints from the public over an exhibition at the Saatchi gallery in London. Police warned that Gearon's works, which showed her children naked, could be seized under indecency laws. There were calls from the tabloids for the exhibition to be closed. But the artist received the backing of Chris Smith, who was Culture Secretary at the time. Mr Smith condemned the police for censoring artistic freedom.

Betsy Schneider

The American photo-artist's exhibition, Inventories, found itself in a storm after opening at the Spitz Gallery in east London in 2004. The show consisted of pictures of Schneider's daughter naked taken at intervals from infancy to five years old. Hours after the show opened, it was closed amid complaints that it was pornographic. Members of the public had been seen taking their own photographs of the exhibition.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art-and-architecture/news/art-or-abuse-fury-over-image-of-naked-girl-862068.html
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 05:51 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
This is a tough one.

First, it was not (as i understand) intended to be sexual. So you can argue its not porn.

However, someone who enjoys little kids (shiver) would probably think it's sexy. (double shiver)

That little girl is just a little girl and probably sees nothing wrong with being naked. And we shouldn't have to tel her there is anything wrong with being naked.

It's those freak weirdos who look at her in a way she should not be looked at that f*ck things up.

I'd not let my daughter do it.

So I guess that's my answer. It's not right.


and you know what...when you let the freaks determine how you live your life you let them win. Any perv could get off on looking at a pic of your daughter playing the front yard, or be sitting in a car and looking and her and jacking off. Who knows how many guys have already made a mental pic of the little girls that you love and stroked to them, and there is no reason to care. No harm was done. Unless you are prepared to send her out every day in a berka I suggest that you calm down, and live your life in a civilized manor. Living in fear is not civilized. Teaching kids that their sexuality is some how bad, that evil is everywhere, and that their body is something that must at all times be hidden is too teach poorly. The end result is that you will likely produced one screwed up repressed adult, and we already have way to many of them running around.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jul, 2008 06:15 pm
This "calm down" advice from the man who thinks "most" women don't know what they want and are just being bad sports when they say they've been raped.

That's comforting.

Not.
0 Replies
 
 

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