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Mon 7 Jul, 2008 08:40 pm
I don't think of it as porn and it could well be art - but I think of it as poor judgement since the child cannot give informed consent, whether the public sees it, for good or ill, as either of them. This is similar to some other bruhahas of similar issues in the art photography world.
I recently read a novel by Dani Shapiro, entitled "Black and White", on this very subject.
It was told from the point of view of the now adult daughter who was photographed by her famous artist mother, in the nude to about the age of 14.
It was a story of violation and apprehension for the protagonists own daughter, who looks very much like her mother at that age, who occassionally gets stares from strangers, recognizing the same face from years ago.
What I got out of the book was the selfishness of the photographer mother for putting her art ahead of considering the long term view of how this was going to effect her family.
It's difficult not getting into semantics as I don't think art and porn are mutually exclusive terms. I think some porn could be considered art and definitely some art is porn.
I don't find the picture offensive, but it's not appealling either, I actually find the vulnerability disturbing, but that could be knowing the back story.
Here it is if you want to look
I think Kev overreacted.
The question is more about exploitation I guess. And when the subject is the daughter of the artist that's an almost unanswerable question in the short term.
Quote:Blanchett steps into nude art row
Cate Blanchett has defended an artist whose portraits of nude children have sparked a censorship row in Australia.
Police shut down photographer Bill Henson's exhibition, seized images and are also considering charging him.
His work, featuring naked 13-year-olds, was condemned by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd as "revolting".
But in an open letter, Blanchett and 42 other leading arts figures said the action risked damaging Australia's cultural reputation.
'Social freedom'
"The potential prosecution of one of our most respected artists is no way to build a creative Australia and does untold damage to our cultural reputation," the letter said, addressed to Australia's environment minister and the premier of New South Wales state.
"We should remember that an important index of social freedom, in earlier times or in repressive regimes elsewhere in the world, is how artists and art are treated by the state.
"We wish to make absolutely clear that none of us endorses, in any way, the abuse of children," they said.
"Henson's work has nothing to do with child pornography and, according to the judgment of some of the most respected curators and critics in the world, it is certainly art."
I gave my reaction, I stand by that reaction and I don't apologise for it and I won't be changing it.
Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd
The exhibition at the Roslyn Oxley9 Gallery in Sydney was shut down by police before it could even open last week after some people complained about photographs of naked 12 and 13-year-old boys and girls.
Police seized 20 photographs from the gallery, most of them of a 13-year-old girl.
They said were seeking to interview the subjects of the photos and their parents and were still investigating whether the photographs violate obscenity laws.
'Innocence'
Prime Minister Rudd has stood by his criticism saying: "I gave my reaction, I stand by that reaction and I don't apologise for it and I won't be changing it."
"I am passionate about children having innocence in their childhood," he said.
Australian child advocacy group Bravehearts labelled the photographs as child pornography and exploitation and have called for Henson and the gallery to be prosecuted.
Two other galleries in New South Wales state have since removed works by Henson from their walls.
Henson, 52, has not spoken publicly since the controversy erupted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7423571.stm
Should be fine. I suppose next we will be raiding the art galleries and taking away all paintings ever done of nude children. Our culture has gone nuts.
Chai wrote:I recently read a novel by Dani Shapiro, entitled "Black and White", on this very subject.
It was told from the point of view of the now adult daughter who was photographed by her famous artist mother, in the nude to about the age of 14.
It was a story of violation and apprehension for the protagonists own daughter, who looks very much like her mother at that age, who occassionally gets stares from strangers, recognizing the same face from years ago.
What I got out of the book was the selfishness of the photographer mother for putting her art ahead of considering the long term view of how this was going to effect her family.
That is one scenario, but I can also see that in other individual cases it might conceivably have a positive effect on the child in later life. Trouble is you just don't know until the child is an independent adult and makes that call themselves.
I also think that 13 year olds is different to 6 year olds - but I'm not sure why...
It reminds of the Blind Faith album cover:
http://www.kpbs.org/media/assets/LOCAL-PUBLIC-AFFAIRS/Story/2007/08/Blind-WEB.jpg
Edit [Moderator]: Image converted to a link
The model was a then 11 year old Mariora Goschen. At fifty she said she was pressured by her sister and promised a pony. In the end she got 40 pounds.
This slightly describes a bruhaha I was referring to -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Mann
The photographer of the Blind Faith cover, according to wikipedia, was also trying to capture that singularity between childhood and adulthood.
And there just happened to be a shiny, bright phallic symbol nearby for her to hold in her hands............
Pull the other one it's got bells on it!
hingehead wrote:That is one scenario, but I can also see that in other individual cases it might conceivably have a positive effect on the child in later life. Trouble is you just don't know until the child is an independent adult and makes that call themselves.
I also think that 13 year olds is different to 6 year olds - but I'm not sure why...
It reminds of the Blind Faith album cover:
The model was a then 11 year old Mariora Goschen. At fifty she said she was pressured by her sister and promised a pony. In the end she got 40 pounds.
Since we are dealing with a child, I do not think it's worth the risk that it "might conceivably have a positive effect"....it also might conceivably do a lot of harm.....First do no harm is not just for physicians.
An 11 year old pressured by a person she is supposed to trust?
Being promised a pony to take her clothes off?
That album cover? I find it offensive. I remember seeing it when first came out. I remember feeling embarrassed and violated by it. The girl in the photo is 11? I would have been 10 at the time. It made me feel that if anyone who wanted to could stare at this girls body (who obviously did not give informed consent), what was to keep them from staring at and exploiting me? Of course, at 10, I didn't thing of the word exploiting. It was more in the terms of realizing "Someone could make me do that and I don't want anyone looking at me without my clothes on."
What if my parents or siblings pressured me? Offered me someone I really wanted? As an adult I could say, "I don't care what you offer me, it's my body and I don't wish for anybody at all to look at it" As a 10 or 11 year old, I wouldn't have a concept of anyone walking on the street could come look at me.
I don't think it's the parents right to allow something to happen to their children that they have no idea what the future adult will feel about it.
First do no harm.
This is a tough one.
First, it was not (as i understand) intended to be sexual. So you can argue its not porn.
However, someone who enjoys little kids (shiver) would probably think it's sexy. (double shiver)
That little girl is just a little girl and probably sees nothing wrong with being naked. And we shouldn't have to tel her there is anything wrong with being naked.
It's those freak weirdos who look at her in a way she should not be looked at that f*ck things up.
I'd not let my daughter do it.
So I guess that's my answer. It's not right.
My mother has an oil portrait of my sister over her mantle. It was commissioned in Nice, France during the early fifties when my dad was stationed in the Mediterranean.
Actually there are two oil portraits, one of my mother at 26, and the other of my sister at about 4. Both portraits were made from photographs my father gave the artist, The one of my mother is of a young woman wearing a high necked frilly blouse. In the other, my sister is apparently wearing nothing. I have seen the originating photographs and both were closed. The supposed nude portrait of my sister was artistic license by the artist---a practice that at the time was acceptable in the south of France.
Today, apparently this is child pornography. However, my mother nor my sister or my sisters children and grandchildren consider it pornography, because there it hangs on my mothers mantle.
BTW when as a kid I asked my dad about the apparent nudity of my sister, he told me that in the south of France in the late 50's and early 50's small children on the Mediterranean beaches were seldom clothed, mostly because of practicality.
Rap
On this same note, it really pisses me off that I am made to feel guilty or wrong for taking pictures of my baby while she is naked. I don't pose her or take sexual pictures of her. I just photograph her while she's in the tub doing baby things, like playing with her ducky or spashing around. I took a picture of her playing naked the other day. She's cute, and innocent and she just happens to be naked. I try to avoid any shots that show her private parts just because there is absolutly no need to include them in the shot. However, even baby butts some times cause an uproar, which is just ridiculous.
I don't share these with anyone and am careful that only family ever see them (because there are all those freaky weirdos out there).
There shouldn't be this problem but there is. And I hate that my daughter will or would feel shame for being a naked little girl because some pervert might look at her.
After having a couple of my photos described as "too provocative" and "sensual" by people who I respect and who I know have no sexual interest in children, I've thought about this a LOT.
One image was an extreme close up of a young girl, no body showing at all; the other was a medium shot of a young boy that showed his face and bare chest. What the two photos did have in common was the subject was staring directly into the lens and they weren't smiling.
In both cases the parent's loved the photo and absolutely did not see anything sexual in them at all.
So I've concluded that knowing the child makes a huge difference in how you respond to the image - whether it is a portrait or whether it is "porn" (Please note: nobody has ever said my photos bordered on porn.)
So I can understand when it comes to the notorious Miley Cyrus photo or this photo how the family and others that know the child can think we're all crazy to react in a way that suggests the photo is too provocative. People who know the child see the innocence; people who don't see exploitation.
I think Bella has it right -- keep such images of your children for your own collection, don't plaster them inside national magazines. Don't feel guilty about taking them or having them, you know your intent as do the friends and family you may wish to share the photos with.
Just my two cents.
I understand where you are coming from Bella.
I honestly can't say when I know when there is this magic "cut off" date taking it from ok, to feelings, even vague feelings of not ok.
I'm thinking peds out there are not totally indiscriminate about the age of the child, and although I'm sure it happens, I don't think it's that common to have a thing for pre 1 year olds vs. a 6 year old.
My neighbor had her 2nd child within the last month. We were talking as she was holding him, and she said "All he wants to do is nurse. That's natural though for a young mammel to want to root"
My neighbor is, BTW employed in the mental health field.
At first I laughed, but, you know what? That's exactly was the baby is...A young mammel rooting around. Yes, he's a human, but to him, that isn't so important at that moment, he just wants food, and searches for it.
Taking a nude picture of a young mammel before he's got any desires beyond being kept fed, warm and dry? No problem with that. They are at that point "any baby".
When they are at some indeterminate age where the parent can say "There's a chance that one day this might embarrass my child" I'd rather they err on the side of caution.
The question keeps coming up "What's wrong with photographing a nude child?"
Well....nothing....probably, maybe....hopefully
I'd like to ask the question
What wrong with photographing a clothed child?
For the parents, are you going to be sitting an looking at old photos of your kinds being adorable, clever, silly and say "I sure wish we had more pictures of our kid naked. I mean, look at this picture, wouldn't it be so much better if he had his clothes off?"
Would you grown child look at those photos and think "oh man, I really wish they'd taken this picture of me with my clothes off. This is embarrassing/icky feeling/bringing up memories/disrespectful of how I feel today as an adult, being seen dressed.
As far as the topic here, I wonder how much thought the photographer thought about how her subject would feel about this in 20 years.
My question is, what's wrong with modesty?.....not prudishness, modesty.
Bella Dea wrote:This is a tough one.
First, it was not (as i understand) intended to be sexual. So you can argue its not porn.
However, someone who enjoys little kids (shiver) would probably think it's sexy. (double shiver)
That little girl is just a little girl and probably sees nothing wrong with being naked. And we shouldn't have to tel her there is anything wrong with being naked.
It's those freak weirdos who look at her in a way she should not be looked at that f*ck things up.
I'd not let my daughter do it.
So I guess that's my answer. It's not right.
and you know what...when you let the freaks determine how you live your life you let them win. Any perv could get off on looking at a pic of your daughter playing the front yard, or be sitting in a car and looking and her and jacking off. Who knows how many guys have already made a mental pic of the little girls that you love and stroked to them, and there is no reason to care. No harm was done. Unless you are prepared to send her out every day in a berka I suggest that you calm down, and live your life in a civilized manor. Living in fear is not civilized. Teaching kids that their sexuality is some how bad, that evil is everywhere, and that their body is something that must at all times be hidden is too teach poorly. The end result is that you will likely produced one screwed up repressed adult, and we already have way to many of them running around.
This "calm down" advice from the man who thinks "most" women don't know what they want and are just being bad sports when they say they've been raped.
That's comforting.
Not.