Outdoor water softening systems

Several are made to be placed out in the elements, but I strongly recommend
that you provide some protection from the suns UV rays and heat Cool

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Softeners installed outdoors need to be protected from too much heat and UV, but MUST be protected from freezing.

In general, when installing most softeners outside, you need a drain for the backwash effluent, electricity, and the service and return plumbing.

Kinetico softeners do not use electricity and lend themselves to difficult installations. I've seen Kineticos buried in the ground and they do very well.

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Re: Outdoor water softening systems

lihybo wrote:

I am currently looking for a water softening system for our home that can be installed outside. I do not have the room inside of my home to accommodate it and my garage is not attached and too far away. Does anyone know of a brand(s) that can be placed outdoors?

All softeners can be installed outdoors but should be shaded and protected from freezing but... why do you say the garage is too far away? You install a softener on the main water line, wherever it is and distance doesn't matter. A garage is an excellent choice because you bring home a bag of salt in a vehicle and the vehicle goes in the garage next to the softener's salt tank so that the distance of lugging salt is minimal.

You can bury any softener. I have numerous customers that have theirs partially buried in crawl spaces and "buried" outdoors as far north as central TN.

So where is your main water line; or where do you plan on installing a softener?

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Where are you located? Do you have water test results? What type of well pump do you have? Submersible or jet pump? Do you have low pH, high sodium, sulfur smell or any other troubled-water conditions?

Yes, ALL softeners CAN be installed outside; it's a simple, physical possibility--just call a plumber and he can hook it up for you--no problem. The plumbing is not difficult. But how long will they last? is a more pertinent question.

There are many softeners, backwashing filters and other water treatment products I would not recommend for outdoor use due to high moisture, especially. Blowing sand, salty air, flooding, rain, and even nesting insects have caused systems to fail. Many valves are not designed to withstand environmental conditions.

Some Fleck softener valves, for example, with their metal backboards and unprotected motors and electronics corrode and fail because of the special effects that ambient temperatures, humidity and other weather and natural conditions cause. Many of these even corrode while sitting in basements away from weather conditions.

Choose a system with your particular conditions in mind. I do agree that shading them from sunlight will be a big help.

If you consider your garage too far away, then I accept your opinion. Of course trenching a line to your garage can offer you water at a location that you don't normally have any. That could be a plus.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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In my 21 years I've serviced many Autotrol, Bruner, Culligan, Fleck, Erie, Rainsoft etc. etc. electrical control valves and spoken to many more people with them and unless humidity causes the metal parts to remain wet for months on end over years, I have not found what Andy claims. But then Andy is a Kinetico salesman.

Today's electrical and electronic control valves do not have those problems.

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Rust is the enemy.
It must be true> Moisture, damp environment, rain, fog and high humidity have no effect on water treatment equipment for ALL softeners that are placed outside. I just wonder what happened to these removed from basements. Radon gases, perhaps!!!

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Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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Click on pictures to enlarge
CLICK ON PICTURES FOR CLOSER DETAIL

Moisture can destroy the most produced valve in the world.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.e766fa3953.jpg

We all need iron, don't we?

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"Doctor said I need to change my diet, I changed my softener, instead."

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Electronics are prone to rust and the results are not good.

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Rust going in. Rust coming out.

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Old Lindsay. Outside debris and moisture preventing service.

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One week's replacements...well, four days actually. Each one just failed to satisfy the customer.

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Fleck valve. Rust and corrosion stopped unit.

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Autotrol out of control

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Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, there are many units I would not
recommend for outdoor use.

I believe Gary introduced me as one of those (gulp) KINETICO guys or I wouldn't have shown that Mr. Compton would never have to worry about rust damaging his unit...even if his basement floods for weeks.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.57f32e2692.jpg

I have many more shots of my presale and follow ups available on request. I don't have that 21 years of not seeing things.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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Outdoor Softening System
I am located in River Ridge, LA, about 15 miles outside of N.O., LA. I have not had out water tested yet, but it is my understanding that the water here in Jefferson Parish is moderately hard and judging by the spots and crust building up on all of the fixtures, I would say that's pretty accurate. Unfortunately, the garage is out of the question, the concrete patio and pool cannot be moved. However, the area chosen for the system is located in a mostly shaded area in a corner near the main water line. One of my main concerns is the electrical components being exposed to the weather. As i'm sure everyone knows, it is very humid here and thunderstorms during midday are typical. Freezing temps and snow, not so much. I have see some do it yourself systems with covers for the control panels. Any thoughts?

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Although many electronic devices suffer from high humidity, there is still a market for those products. As I tried to illustrate above, you take the risk that after a period of time, there may be some problems with your valve. Even covering them from direct weather, humidity can still affect their performance.

Kinetico, since they are non-electric, won't have those problems. They are more expensive at first but tend to be a benefit in the long run. I do advise to keep it in the shade or cover the valve with a cover.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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Re: Rust is the enemy.

Andy CWS wrote:

It must be true> Moisture, damp environment, rain, fog and high humidity have no effect on water treatment equipment for ALL softeners that are placed outside. I just wonder what happened to these removed from basements. Radon gases, perhaps!!!

AFAIK, radon is not a corrosive but, you are misidentifying the problem with those control valves. Maybe it's due to you and most all other national brands sales guys wanting to replace rather than fix equipment...

This is an Autotrol 155 valve and the gray plastic says it is from the late '70s early to mid '80s. Since then the plastic is black. There is nothing on either version to rust but the motor. The rust seen is inside the air check and can be cleaned out with some Iron Out run through the softener. Or the air check can be replaced for like $15.00 and an untrained monkey can unscrew one and screw on its replacement.

This looks like a Fleck 8500 or 9100 twin tank control valve. It has a leaking piston end cap o-ring. Easily replaced for next to nothing. The rust is from iron in the water leaking out onto the surface of the control valve, not from humidity etc..

This looks like a Fleck 2500. It has a leaking piston end cap o-ring. Easily replaced for next to nothing. The 2500 was built for decades and was replaced about 10+ years ago with the Noryl plastic 2510. Only the motor can "rust" which rarely to never happens. The rust is from iron in the water leaking out onto the surface of the control valve, not from humidity etc..

This is an Ecowater; Kenmore, Whirlpool, GE, North Star, Mortonsalt.com etc.. CHEAP quality, materials and design.

This is a Fleck 2xx0 made for Culligan. It has a leaking piston stem o-ring. Easily replaced for next to nothing. The rust is from iron in the water leaking out onto the surface of the control valve, not from humidity etc..

Another Ecowater product...

Another or the same Culligan as above; leaking piston stem end cap. The rust is from iron in the water leaking out onto the surface of the control valve, not from humidity etc..

All these valves could have been repaired for less than $250, including a service call charge; by the owner or a reputable dealer/salesman.

But if not all, most national salesmen will tell the owner that their softener is no good so they can sell their high priced NEW "non-electric" and other softeners. SHAME ON THEM.

IF they were interested in doing right, they would learn how to repair equipment they are called out on.

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What?

No mention of cheap Clack crap?

Shame on you!

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Re: Click on pictures to enlarge

Andy CWS wrote:

CLICK ON PICTURES FOR CLOSER DETAIL

Moisture can destroy the most produced valve in the world.

This is a Fleck 5600 with the back cover removed. The only thing that can rust on it is the motor, which happens very rarely to never. What you see as rust is iron water leaking from the piston stem o-ring; easily replaced by most anyone including the DIY owner. The motor is the round gray metal thing in the top right corner; note there is no rust on it.

New resin would have stopped the rust problems.

A new piston stem o-ring would have prevented the leak.

I guess you mean the rust in the inlet of the control valve, that's normal with iron present in the raw water..... As it is in the drain line in the picture above this one.

Another 25+ year old Autotrol, but I don't see corrosion, just dirt that a wet rag would remove....

Andy CWS wrote:

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, there are many units I would not recommend for outdoor use.

And yet so far, you have not shown any environmental caused corrosion due to humidity etc.. You have only shown corrosion caused by leaking control valves.

Andy CWS wrote:

I have many more shots of my presale and follow ups available on request. I don't have that 21 years of not seeing things.

The problem is your "presale" replacement philosophy rather than repairing anything. And then as we see, you don't have the required experience in servicing equipment that would enable you to be able to determine environment caused corrosion from inexpensive leaking o-rings or bad resin that running some Iron Out or other resin cleaner through the softener would cure.

I take it that you or the dealer you work for is not into fixing anything which leads you to misrepresenting the condition of existing equipment as you have demonstrated here. That is basically to enable you to sell your highly overpriced "non-electric" (100 year old technology) water powered Kinetico equipment.

BTW, that piston stem leaking problem is the biggest short coming of Fleck built control valves. The design of the Clack valves got rid of the cause of the piston stem and its o-ring wear caused leaks.

And there is nothing on a Clack that will rust and unless water is splashed on the under side of the circuit board, there can not be any shorting of electrical components on the circuit board. The board is installed at an angle so water will run off and the components on the top of the board are embedded in epoxy. And anyone still worried about rain etc. outdoors or in humid locations can buy an outdoor environmental cover for about $25.

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Re: Rust is the enemy.

Gary Slusser wrote:

AFAIK, radon is not a corrosive but, you are misidentifying the problem with those control valves. Maybe it's due to you and most all other national brands sales guys wanting to replace rather than fix equipment...

I was joking about the radon gas, whew![/I]
"...misidentifying the problem? Right! "

That is rust below--just enlarge the picture by clicking and look carefully and you will see that it is corrosion not staining from a "leaky valve". Stains tend to go where the water goes and that is usually down, not up. Also there is no "staining" on non-metalic parts like the tank cover down beneath and the plastic parts of the valve. The electronic parts failed due to this corrosion.

This valve WAS NOT LEAKING. I was there, I took it out, no water on the floor or anyother place.

Neither was this softening and it was using tons of salt and leaving iron stains and making the customer very upset because THEIR COMPANY gave up on them after numerous, failed and expensive attempts to fix it before finally requiring them to buy a replacement....then they called me.

Gary, you really need to get it together or nobody will understand what you are talking about or trust you. I'll just let others judge by the photographic evidence rather than pontification, wild speculation and, what was it you said: "Mis-identifying the problem".

I won't go into further detail on the other shots. But jus

Another or the same Culligan as above; leaking piston stem end cap. The rust is from iron in the water leaking out onto the surface of the control valve, not from humidity etc..

All these valves could have been repaired for less than $250, including a service call charge; by the owner or a reputable dealer/salesman.

But if not all, most national salesmen will tell the owner that their softener is no good so they can sell their high priced NEW "non-electric" and other softeners. SHAME ON THEM.

IF they were interested in doing right, they would learn how to repair equipment they are called out on.

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Re: Click on pictures to enlarge

Gary Slusser wrote:

BTW, that piston stem leaking problem is the biggest short coming of Fleck built control valves.
The design of the Clack valves got rid of the cause of the piston stem and its o-ring wear caused leaks.

The piston stem leak is rare and easily fixed under warranty.
Not much intel on the Clack valve yet - it's not very popular,
at least I don't seem them in my area...

As I mentioned earlier, protect your investment Cool

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Re: Rust is the enemy.

Andy CWS wrote:

That is rust below--just enlarge the picture by clicking and look carefully and you will see that it is corrosion not staining from a "leaky valve". Stains tend to go where the water goes and that is usually down, not up. Also there is no "staining" on non-metalic parts like the tank cover down beneath and the plastic parts of the valve. The electronic parts failed due to this corrosion.

I have already enlarged all the pictures.

Andy CWS wrote:

This valve WAS NOT LEAKING. I was there, I took it out, no water on the floor or any other place.

That's because it is a very small amount of water over a long time.

Andy CWS wrote:

THEIR COMPANY gave up on them after numerous, failed and expensive attempts to fix it before finally requiring them to buy a replacement....then they called me.

As I said, all national brand types say replace rather than fix.

Andy CWS wrote:

I won't go into further detail on the other shots.

If you don't it looks like you don't know what you are talking about...

Here is a better picture.

http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/images/stem_oring_leak.jpg

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Re: Rust is the enemy.

Andy CWS wrote:

That is rust below--just enlarge the picture by clicking and look carefully and you will see that it is corrosion not staining from a "leaky valve". Stains tend to go where the water goes and that is usually down, not up. Also there is no "staining" on non-metalic parts like the tank cover down beneath and the plastic parts of the valve. The electronic parts failed due to this corrosion.

I have already enlarged all the pictures. Show us what you are claiming is not a leak.

Andy CWS wrote:

This valve WAS NOT LEAKING. I was there, I took it out, no water on the floor or any other place.

That's because it is a very small amount of water over a long time. BTW, the backing plate is replaceable too.

Andy CWS wrote:

THEIR COMPANY gave up on them after numerous, failed and expensive attempts to fix it before finally requiring them to buy a replacement....then they called me.

As I said, all national brand types say replace rather than fix.

Andy CWS wrote:

I won't go into further detail on the other shots.

If you don't it looks like you don't know what you are talking about... so show us close ups of what you are talking about on that valve.

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Re: Click on pictures to enlarge

Gary Slusser wrote:

... there is nothing on a Clack that will rust and unless water is splashed on the under side of the circuit board, there can not be any shorting of electrical components on the circuit board.

Not true... here's a close-up of a Clack WS-1 circuit board in a Clack WS-1 that you sold.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/12418f5434.jpg

As clearly seen in this picture of a Clack WS-1 circuit board there is NO epoxy potting but there are completely bare and exposed components and connections which can be shorted with moisture either by contact or condensation on both top and bottom of the board.

Gary Slusser wrote:

The board is installed at an angle so water will run off and the components on the top of the board are embedded in epoxy.

Not a drop of epoxy anywhere on this Clack WS-1 circuit board. None, zip, nada.

Water dribbling down this Clack WS-1 circuit board from top to bottom, since it is almost vertical in the WS-1, can easily short the exposed components and/or connections.

The only person who would install an exposed, unprotected board like this in an environment where high humidity and moisture are common would be a person looking to generate parts and service income... untrained monkeys need work too :wink:

It makes more sense that the circuit board is installed almost vertical so the homeowner can see the LCD display not so water runs off it.

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If I were allowed to post pictures here, I'd prove you and Andy wrong, so since I'm not...

Turn it over and show us the top side of that circuit board. Then put it in the valve and take a side view picture showing the angle it is installed at.

Then tell us how humidity is going to form water on a circuit board that is at air temperature.

Then how rain water is going to get in through the regular or outdoor covers.

Going back to Andy's claim, he says the rust on that valve is from humidity. If that were true, why is there rust in a pattern from the highest part of the valve body, and none above there and then down at angles from there to the bottom of the back plate. That says that the rust started at or near the highest point of the plastic. The piston stem exits the front of the valve just below the highest point on the front of the rusted back plate, and the front will be rusted too. And in a streak or the same upside down V pattern.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

If I were allowed to post pictures here, I'd prove you and Andy wrong, so since I'm not...

A restriction you earned?

The picture I posted is of the control board installed in a Clack WS-1 that you sold and shows everything necessary to prove your statement of "epoxy potted" Clack WS-1 control boards FALSE. There is no epoxy anywhere on that board and that is the top (front) side of the board in the picture.

You can hold your breath till you turn blue or throw a tantrum upside down in the middle of the floor but it won't put epoxy on that board.

You don't even know what you sell because you never see what is drop shipped to your customers.

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