but the topic is not abuse it is pornography.
When it comes to child porn where no child is hurt
I don't. Simple as that. Scan this entire thread and you won't find anything written by me in support of the use of violence agaisnt children.
Actually, your ideas about rape and abuse are those most common throughout history....(I for one grew up with them)....just as our current criminalization of slavery is historically novel.
Quote:but the topic is not abuse it is pornography.
Actually, it's child pornography, which results from abuse and is abuse.
Quote:When it comes to child porn where no child is hurt
You can't seriously have meant this?
As for the ridiculous example of child masturbation - Who introduced pre pubescent kids to masturbation? (and agrote is talking pre pubescent). And who introduced them to the idea of getting filmed doing so? Do you really think the manipulating adults didn't take it any further with the kids?
dlowan wrote:Actually, your ideas about rape and abuse are those most common throughout history....(I for one grew up with them)....just as our current criminalization of slavery is historically novel.
WHat has changed is the victim culture, historically nobody had the luxury of counting up all the ways that life is unfair and then run around and find somebody to blame for it so that they did not need to take responsibility for their own lives and their own actions. The fact that so many otherwise intelligent people make a living out of encouraging a sense of victimization in individuals, as civilization accumulates for the fist time in centuries pressing problems that will impact basic survival, is unconscionable. A acquiring of decent sense of priorities is in order. I am not a dinosaur, I am the future. Your views are headed from the scrap heap of history in short order. It was a failed experiment.
cicerone imposter wrote:hawkeye10 wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Speak of the "devil."
Pimps arrested, kids rescued in prostitution busts
This has very little to do with the tread subject and actually works against the majority position. Thousands (tens of thousands?) of kids every year run away from home and when things get rough on the street would rather become sex workers than go back home. Almost always these kids are voluntarily sexual, and willingly in the business, capturing their sexual selves in photo's and video not only does not harm them it is a welcome source of revenue for them.
And you know this first hand?
I know this because I know that there are multiple NGO and independent do-gooders out on the streets trying to get these kids off of the streets, off of drugs, and out of the sex business, but overall nothing changes. American TV shows like 20/20 routinely do this story, talk to the kids and the do gooders, and the story is always the same. The kids always say that they know of the people and organizations that will help them get off the streets if they want to, but would rather not. The do-gooders say that for every one they help get out it seems that a new one shows up willing to sell sex so that they don't have to go home to a home life that they detest or where they are not wanted.
SACRAMENTO, California (CNN) -- For more than two years, undercover cops on the Sacramento Police Department's vice squad have been working one of the most draining beats: trying to crack down on online child prostitution.
Sacramento police have nabbed nearly 70 underage girls for child prostitution since 2005.
1 of 3 Police have nabbed nearly 70 girls under the age of 18 since 2005. Most of the girls were released to foster or group homes. Those are just the official figures; investigators think there are many more child prostitutes out there.
It is no easy task.
"We're asking these girls to do a big thing ... which is to stop what they're doing," said Sgt. Pam Seyffert of the Sacramento Police Department. "Stop what's working for them. Surviving is basically what they're doing."
Sacramento police are working with the FBI as part of a nationwide campaign to combat underage prostitution called Innocence Lost. The goal of the program, which is now in almost 30 U.S. cities, is to decriminalize the girls and concentrate on catching the pimps who control them.
"It really makes me angry," Seyffert said. "I think everybody on the team has different reactions to it, but I just flat out get really angry that some guy thinks he can take this girl and basically deprive her of her freedom."
It is not uncommon for the officers on the unit to put in 30-hour shifts. Oftentimes, their work is heart-wrenching.
Child prostitution is even tougher on the parents of these girls. Roslyn and Sergio's daughter had been missing for more than two weeks. They waited for hours at police headquarters in hopes that their daughter would be found.
Vice squad officers found her in a downtown apartment with Bruce William Carter, a 21-year-old man who police said had posed on the Internet holding fistfuls of cash. He pleaded not guilty to charges of statutory rape and was held in lieu of $35,000 bail.
The couple's daughter, who had just turned 17, was detained but not arrested.
"It hurt," said Roslyn, who appeared weary and a bit shell-shocked. "Because you don't want to see your children involved in things like this. You don't realize how dangerous the Internet is. Now, we got to keep her away from the Internet."
Police say most of the ads appear on Craigslist, the popular and free Internet classifieds site, under a category named "Erotic Services." Even though Craigslist has posted a bold disclaimer warning against human trafficking and the exploitation of children, law enforcement officials said it doesn't seem to deter girls from posting the ads or men who are searching for sex.
But why would a girl sell her body online?
Don't Miss
FBI's Innocence Lost initiative
CNN Newsroom
To help answer that question, Sacramento police made arrangements for CNN to interview a 14-year-old girl who said she'd started selling herself as a prostitute at the age of 11.
"I wanted to feel loved. ... I wanted to feel important," said the teen, who did not want to be identified.
She said she used Craigslist because it was free and she could post dozens of ads a day. Even though she understood the seriousness of what she was doing, she said she didn't care.
"You could put stuff in your ad like 'wet and wild,' 'fun and sassy,' things like that to catch their attention, to make them want you," she said.
Craigslist executives said they abhor the fact that their site is being used for child prostitution but believe that the problem could be harder to track if they removed the category.
"It would be a bigger problem if we removed that category and had those ads spread throughout the site," said Jim Buckmaster, chief executive officer of Craigslist.
Both legal experts and police say Craigslist bears no legal responsibility. Undercover officers said the fact that the listings can be traced helps them pinpoint the girls and sometimes leads them to pimps.
For her part, Roslyn has a strong message for the man arrested in connection with her daughter's detention.
"I want him to stay away from my daughter," she said. "I'm going to put a restraining order on him. Every time he goes near my daughter, I'm going to call the police and have him put in jail."
Even though they have more work than they can handle, vice officers hold out hope that they can save more girls from a life of prostitution.
hawkeye10 wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:hawkeye10 wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Speak of the "devil."
Pimps arrested, kids rescued in prostitution busts
This has very little to do with the tread subject and actually works against the majority position. Thousands (tens of thousands?) of kids every year run away from home and when things get rough on the street would rather become sex workers than go back home. Almost always these kids are voluntarily sexual, and willingly in the business, capturing their sexual selves in photo's and video not only does not harm them it is a welcome source of revenue for them.
And you know this first hand?
I know this because I know that there are multiple NGO and independent do-gooders out on the streets trying to get these kids off of the streets, off of drugs, and out of the sex business, but overall nothing changes. American TV shows like 20/20 routinely do this story, talk to the kids and the do gooders, and the story is always the same. The kids always say that they know of the people and organizations that will help them get off the streets if they want to, but would rather not. The do-gooders say that for every one they help get out it seems that a new one shows up willing to sell sex so that they don't have to go home to a home life that they detest or where they are not wanted.
Quote:http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/27/child.prostitution/index.htmlSACRAMENTO, California (CNN) -- For more than two years, undercover cops on the Sacramento Police Department's vice squad have been working one of the most draining beats: trying to crack down on online child prostitution.
Sacramento police have nabbed nearly 70 underage girls for child prostitution since 2005.
1 of 3 Police have nabbed nearly 70 girls under the age of 18 since 2005. Most of the girls were released to foster or group homes. Those are just the official figures; investigators think there are many more child prostitutes out there.
It is no easy task.
"We're asking these girls to do a big thing ... which is to stop what they're doing," said Sgt. Pam Seyffert of the Sacramento Police Department. "Stop what's working for them. Surviving is basically what they're doing."
Sacramento police are working with the FBI as part of a nationwide campaign to combat underage prostitution called Innocence Lost. The goal of the program, which is now in almost 30 U.S. cities, is to decriminalize the girls and concentrate on catching the pimps who control them.
"It really makes me angry," Seyffert said. "I think everybody on the team has different reactions to it, but I just flat out get really angry that some guy thinks he can take this girl and basically deprive her of her freedom."
It is not uncommon for the officers on the unit to put in 30-hour shifts. Oftentimes, their work is heart-wrenching.
Child prostitution is even tougher on the parents of these girls. Roslyn and Sergio's daughter had been missing for more than two weeks. They waited for hours at police headquarters in hopes that their daughter would be found.
Vice squad officers found her in a downtown apartment with Bruce William Carter, a 21-year-old man who police said had posed on the Internet holding fistfuls of cash. He pleaded not guilty to charges of statutory rape and was held in lieu of $35,000 bail.
The couple's daughter, who had just turned 17, was detained but not arrested.
"It hurt," said Roslyn, who appeared weary and a bit shell-shocked. "Because you don't want to see your children involved in things like this. You don't realize how dangerous the Internet is. Now, we got to keep her away from the Internet."
Police say most of the ads appear on Craigslist, the popular and free Internet classifieds site, under a category named "Erotic Services." Even though Craigslist has posted a bold disclaimer warning against human trafficking and the exploitation of children, law enforcement officials said it doesn't seem to deter girls from posting the ads or men who are searching for sex.
But why would a girl sell her body online?
Don't Miss
FBI's Innocence Lost initiative
CNN Newsroom
To help answer that question, Sacramento police made arrangements for CNN to interview a 14-year-old girl who said she'd started selling herself as a prostitute at the age of 11.
"I wanted to feel loved. ... I wanted to feel important," said the teen, who did not want to be identified.
She said she used Craigslist because it was free and she could post dozens of ads a day. Even though she understood the seriousness of what she was doing, she said she didn't care.
"You could put stuff in your ad like 'wet and wild,' 'fun and sassy,' things like that to catch their attention, to make them want you," she said.
Craigslist executives said they abhor the fact that their site is being used for child prostitution but believe that the problem could be harder to track if they removed the category.
"It would be a bigger problem if we removed that category and had those ads spread throughout the site," said Jim Buckmaster, chief executive officer of Craigslist.
Both legal experts and police say Craigslist bears no legal responsibility. Undercover officers said the fact that the listings can be traced helps them pinpoint the girls and sometimes leads them to pimps.
For her part, Roslyn has a strong message for the man arrested in connection with her daughter's detention.
"I want him to stay away from my daughter," she said. "I'm going to put a restraining order on him. Every time he goes near my daughter, I'm going to call the police and have him put in jail."
Even though they have more work than they can handle, vice officers hold out hope that they can save more girls from a life of prostitution.
Lets keep up the delusion that pimps are responsible for our little dear children selling sex, even though in the internet age they don't need the services of a pimp and thus often don't have one. Lets keep up the delusion that our hard working cops are making a difference by nabbing and putting into the CPS system girls who are found selling their sexual services. Anyone looked at craigslist lately? Ever seen a shortage is supply of child sex workers? I did not think so.
vikorr wrote:Quote:but the topic is not abuse it is pornography.
Actually, it's child pornography, which results from abuse and is abuse.
Quote:When it comes to child porn where no child is hurt
You can't seriously have meant this?
As for the ridiculous example of child masturbation - Who introduced pre pubescent kids to masturbation? (and agrote is talking pre pubescent). And who introduced them to the idea of getting filmed doing so? Do you really think the manipulating adults didn't take it any further with the kids?
I am not in favor of sexual kids pics being legal, but I am pointing out that the allegation that sexual pics of kids must be the result of child abuse can not be supported. The other side has gotten to the point that they must conclude that non consensual use of pics is child abuse, which has us about down to the civilization level of the primitive tribes of a hundred or so years ago who believed that the invading white men had stolen their souls by taking pics of them.
Most kids today are sexual by the time they are twelve, anyone who is not aware that kids develop sexually, both physically and emotionally, earlier than ever before is not paying attention. Our morals and our laws have gone the other direction unfortunately, 18 years old is the new 14 which was the old 12 so far as acceptable norms go. talk about a disconnect.
WHat has changed is the victim culture, historically nobody had the luxury of counting up all the ways that life is unfair and then run around and find somebody to blame for it so that they did not need to take responsibility for their own lives and their own actions.
The problem with photographic child pornography is that it can't be made without the abuse of an actual child. The problem is the actual abuse that takes place.
So it seems that viewing even real child pornography is a victimless crime. It doesn't appear to have any consequences for children at all, and it clearly has good consequences for paedophiles: they can satisfy their sexual appetite, and they can do this without abusing children.
Nevertheless, perhaps you will at least agree that drawings of child abuse, based on nothing but fantasy, are about as victimless as it gets.
Aha! he's back to his stock and store....articlesd he thinks (delusionally) support his warped views.
Never answers a convincing argument, never responds to a cogent response...just rage and dumb cut and pastes.
Way to go.
dlowan wrote:
Aha! he's back to his stock and store....articlesd he thinks (delusionally) support his warped views.
Never answers a convincing argument, never responds to a cogent response...just rage and dumb cut and pastes.
Way to go.
If you, the person who claims to be an expert on the subject, don't know this stuff and/or are to lazy to do the research to check my facts then I don't have the time to talk to you. I will give you the following in support of the second half of my 9:47 post responding to vikorr. In the future please come to class prepared.
http://www.slate.com/id/2174841/
Hawkeye wrote:WHat has changed is the victim culture, historically nobody had the luxury of counting up all the ways that life is unfair and then run around and find somebody to blame for it so that they did not need to take responsibility for their own lives and their own actions.
Are you suggesting that children should blame themselves for the creation of child pornography?
By the way, Agrote, in his original post, was refering to child pornography that results from child abuse. See quotes below. If you want to discuss whether or not filming a post pubescent child having sex is child abuse in all instances, you might to start another thread. In this thread, it will only create confusion.
And as a clarifier, you might want to qualify your views in relation to post pubescent, and pre pubescent child pornography.
Agrote wrote:The problem with photographic child pornography is that it can't be made without the abuse of an actual child. The problem is the actual abuse that takes place.
So it seems that viewing even real child pornography is a victimless crime. It doesn't appear to have any consequences for children at all, and it clearly has good consequences for paedophiles: they can satisfy their sexual appetite, and they can do this without abusing children.
Nevertheless, perhaps you will at least agree that drawings of child abuse, based on nothing but fantasy, are about as victimless as it gets.
I don't agree with agrote, I am not agrote, please don't assume that I use his arguments or use the same definitions that he does.
In some cultures kids are sexualized (stimulated and/or taught to use their sexulity) very early, 7 or 8 years old, however so far as I know this is mainly in primitive cultures.
We in America do however have our "beauty pageants" so we do it too to a slight degree. In my opinion it is the teens who get the shaft, girls reach menarche in year 12 yet are not allowed responsibility for their sexuality till they become 18.
In other cultures parents even teach their children how to masturbate and some fathers or other male adults initiate daughters by having intercourse with them. There is no indication that these practices in any way harm the children, but are in fact the parents' way of teaching their children good sexual skills.
Children learn how to do everything else, from writing the alphabet to hammering a nail, from older, more experienced people. But when it comes to sex--gasp--such is taboo! Yet, this is purely a cultural prejudice, based on a long history of sexual repression and negative teachings, much of it religious. It is not based in any psycho-developmental reality of human nature.
On the island of Mangaia in the South Pacific "infants are special people, rocked and indulged by all family members. Bare genitals are playfully or casually stimulated and lingual manipulation of the tiny penis is common." "Privacy is unknown, as each hut contains five to sixteen family members of all ages. [Remember our discussion of the extended family and its role in sex education?] Adolescent daughters often receive lovers at night and parents 'bump together' so that young children may be awakened by the slapping sound of moist genitals. Although adults rarely talk to children about sex, erotic wit and innuendoes are common.
"At the age of three or four, children band together and explore the mysteries of the dense tropical bush....Sex play flourishes in the undergrowth and coital activity may begin at any time."
Children also learn about sex from one another and "young girls also learn from elderly women who teach by telling stories and by direct practical instruction. The young boy is taught at puberty by older males. [Remember the puberty rites discussed above?] [He] is coached in techniques such as the kissing and sucking of breasts. He is told about lubrication and trained in methods of bringing his partner to climax several times prior to his own ejaculation." (Alayne Yates, Sex Without Shame: Encouraging the Child's Healthy Sexual Development, pp. 71-72)
It would seem pedophiles (and those associated with them) have no place in modern society. If this is the case, what to do with them? Jail fails to suppress pedophiles as sexual desires don't simply disappear. The only logical course of action seems to be absolute alienation, life long prison or execution (or a mixture of the two, put them in jail and let them starve).
As for the ridiculous example of child masturbation - Who introduced pre pubescent kids to masturbation? (and agrote is talking pre pubescent). And who introduced them to the idea of getting filmed doing so? Do you really think the manipulating adults didn't take it any further with the kids?
Most every post in your thread is in support of violence against children. Photographs of child abuse cannot exist without violence against children, and you are supporting people who gain pleasure from of this violence against children (in this case, in terms of photographs). The two concepts aren't separable - you can't have the latter without the former. You support it Agrote, in all it's ugliness and simplicity.
