You Can't Do This in France

Walter Hinteler wrote:

cjhsa wrote:

You'll never get it - so please don't come back here.

Did Craven sell the site and you got it now?

Or who the hell are you to send me away, you bigot?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I wonder a bit now about all the various US "HATE CRIMES ACTS" ...

If you believe that the free expression of opinions should be censored and criminalized, then there're really nothing more to say. Over here, we emphatically do not. No one in America is going to be arrested for his ideas, at least not successfully. We have freedom of thought, expression, and assembly. I will absolutely defend the right of someone I bitterly disagree with to speak.

I'd just leave you with the thought that if a person countenances the suppression repugnant opinions in his country, it opens the door to eventual wholesale censorship. It's what we call a "slippery slope." One day they may come for him.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

I'd just leave you with the thought that if a person countenances the suppression repugnant opinions in his country, it opens the door to eventual wholesale censorship. It's what we call a "slippery slope." One day they may come for him.

I do see it the other way around and it's confirmed by the evolution of censorship in France.

Repression of hateful opinions lead way to a more permissive society and to a more peaceful and understanding relationship of the different cultures..

But it's only my opinion...

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Brandon9000 wrote:

[If you believe that the free expression of opinions should be censored and criminalized, then there're really nothing more to say. Over here, we emphatically do not.

No, I don't.

But if they hurt my personal rights ...

I think, YOU don't get it: not everywhere in the world US-laws and the US constitution are the non plus ultra.
Many countries, like the UK, Germany, Switzerland, ... and France hold the individual, personal rights high. (For instance, here the police can't handcuff people as easily as they do in the USA.)

Start a war with those countries, if you believe that they act against the "inherited right of all living beings".

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Start a war with those countries, if you believe that they act against the "inherited right of all living beings".

Don't attribute attitudes to me that I don't have. I just said that I believe freedom of speech is a fundamental right. It's ludicrous to suggest that I would support attacking France or any country on the basis of civil rights violations. I can criticize someone's actions without wanting to attack them. See if you can defend your ideas without pretending that I'm saying things that I'm not.

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The liberal thought process is impossible to understand because it involves a complete lack of thought. No worries Brandon, you're in good company.

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Note how the usual "blame America first" crowd, who constantly inveigh against President Bush for alleged civil rights violations, seem to be utterly disinterested in the most egregious civil rights violations in a European country. At least they seem to be disinterested in discussing the state of free speech in Europe or this event in particular.

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We stand up and give liberty and freedom our American backing no matter where in this world it struggles to live and survive.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Note how the usual "blame America first" crowd, who constantly inveigh against President Bush for alleged civil rights violations, seem to be utterly disinterested in the most egregious civil rights violations in a European country. At least they seem to be disinterested in discussing the state of free speech in Europe or this event in particular.

I do honestly think that there is a difference if someone obeys his/her countries laws as well as the internatianol law and signed treaties - or not.

But certainly you've the right to have a different opinion.

Besides that: where is the "usual 'blame America first crowd'" here?

Neither Francis nor I belong to those .... and who else responded here? I may have missed them, though.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Note how the usual "blame America first" crowd, who constantly inveigh against President Bush for alleged civil rights violations, seem to be utterly disinterested in the most egregious civil rights violations in a European country. At least they seem to be disinterested in discussing the state of free speech in Europe or this event in particular.

I do honestly think that there is a difference if someone obeys his/her countries laws as well as the internatianol law and signed treaties - or not.

But certainly you've the right to have a different opinion.

Besides that: where is the "usual 'blame America first crowd'" here?

Neither Francis nor I belong to those .... and who else responded here? I may have missed them, though.

No, that's what I'm saying. They're not here. When one can allege a civil rights violation by the US, they're on it in seconds, but when Europeans arrest their citizens for political thought, they aren't interested. This supports my suspicion that their actual interest is the "blaming America" part, rather than any underlying issue about civil rights.

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cjhsa wrote:

The liberal thought process is impossible to understand because it involves a complete lack of thought. No worries Brandon, you're in good company.

If that is meant to be related to the topic of this thread than it is pure nonsense and shows a deep lack of history: all those laws are actually based on conservative (and right libertarian) theories and ideas - since these laws were first introduced in 19th century.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

when Europeans arrest their citizens for political thought, they aren't interested.

This thread is not about any political thought but about the (various) French laws, summed up under the title: "Declamation, discrimination et Incitation à la haine raciale".

Freedom of expression must be balanced with the universal human rights of individuals. And the latter are thought to be a higher object of legal protection than the first by most European constitutions and highest courts.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Note how the usual "blame America first" crowd, who constantly inveigh against President Bush for alleged civil rights violations, seem to be utterly disinterested in the most egregious civil rights violations in a European country. At least they seem to be disinterested in discussing the state of free speech in Europe or this event in particular.

Mere assumption on your part, Brandon.

I'm interested in discussing these matters with people that CAN understand others' points of view.

But beginning with calling everybody who would be tempted to come here to discuss, "usual 'blame America first crowd" will lead them away.

Not that I feel included in that category, but some others should feel belittled by such comments and refrain from commenting.

Now, coming to the point of civil rights violations, CAN you understand that other countries no not measure themselves by YOUR standards?

I do believe it's an inalienable civil right of mine NOT to be insulted, provoked or discriminated against, due to my color, origin, racial background, opinions and religion.

I do believe, as there is a law forbbiding that, that any violators should be persecuted.

Mrs Bardot has been doing such for years, I mean, inciting to racial hatred.

Therefore, it's only natural that she got sentenced.

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Francis wrote:

I do believe it's an inalienable civil right of mine NOT to be insulted, provoked or discriminated against, due to my color, origin, racial background, opinions and religion.

I do believe, as there is a law forbbiding that, that any violators should be persecuted.

Mrs Bardot has been doing such for years, I mean, inciting to racial hatred.

Therefore, it's only natural that she got sentenced.

I totally agree. And re this 'Bardot ruling': actually she should have got two months prison ...

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Francis wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Note how the usual "blame America first" crowd, who constantly inveigh against President Bush for alleged civil rights violations, seem to be utterly disinterested in the most egregious civil rights violations in a European country. At least they seem to be disinterested in discussing the state of free speech in Europe or this event in particular.

Mere assumption on your part, Brandon.

I'm interested in discussing these matters with people that CAN understand others' points of view.

But beginning with calling everybody who would be tempted to come here to discuss, "usual 'blame America first crowd" will lead them away.

Not that I feel included in that category, but some others should feel belittled by such comments and refrain from commenting.

Now, coming to the point of civil rights violations, CAN you understand that other countries no not measure themselves by YOUR standards?

I do believe it's an inalienable civil right of mine NOT to be insulted, provoked or discriminated against, due to my color, origin, racial background, opinions and religion.

I do believe, as there is a law forbbiding that, that any violators should be persecuted.

Mrs Bardot has been doing such for years, I mean, inciting to racial hatred.

Therefore, it's only natural that she got sentenced.

First of all, I am not including you in the "blame America first" crowd. In fact, that's my point. This thread is getting much less attention than the ones in which America is alleged to be responsible for civil rights violations.

Secondly, I do understand that other countries don't measure themselves by my standards, and, in fact, that is exactly what I am defending here - the right to have and express one's opinion, no matter what it is. Can you understand that I can respect your right to have an opinion, but debate you about it?

I do not believe that you have an inalienable right, or any right at all, to forbid someone to express a negative opinion about you, unless it alleges an objective lie about your actions which injures you tangibly, or the speaker is harassing you, or directly exhorting others to commit violence against you. I do believe that to forbid someone to express an opinion is wrong.

Paradoxically, you say:

Francis wrote:

I do believe it's an inalienable civil right of mine NOT to be insulted, provoked or discriminated against, due to my color, origin, racial background, opinions and religion.

while supporting arresting a woman for her opinions. Does she not have this right that you claim for yourself?

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North African colonial troops from Algeria and Morocco, and colonial troops from West Africa fought and died in their thousands in the Great War to defend France. North Africans and West Africans in their thousands fought and died for France in the Second World War to liberate Italy and France. But now they're a problem, right? Now they should just go away, right? Hey, thanks for the blood, but you're stinkin' up the place . . . go home.

This is precisely the kind of attitude you can expect from rightwingnuts.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Francis wrote:
I do believe it's an inalienable civil right of mine NOT to be insulted, provoked or discriminated against, due to my color, origin, racial background, opinions and religion.

I do believe, as there is a law forbbiding that, that any violators should be persecuted.

Mrs Bardot has been doing such for years, I mean, inciting to racial hatred.

Therefore, it's only natural that she got sentenced.

I totally agree. And re this 'Bardot ruling': actually she should have got two months prison ...

That's insane. But so's Walt... as I've long stated.

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I encourange EVERYONE to write the French government and tell them that Islam is ruining their country, and every other country it touches. Also tell them that laws restricting free speech violate the most basic of human rights, even if that speech "insults" another person.

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Setanta wrote:

This is precisely the kind of attitude you can expect from rightwingnuts.

I thought provincial attitudes were what we could expect.

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What could be more provincial than: "You might have fought and died for France, but you don't look like us, so get the hell out?"

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You Can't Do This in France

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