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Objectivism 101

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:48 am
DavidIg wrote:
Joe.
Tell us how you determine right from wrong in an objective manner...with any luck you won't confuse yourself.

You don't believe in objective morality? That makes you a pretty poor objectivist, David. Watch out, they might kick you out of the clubhouse.
0 Replies
 
DavidIg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 08:25 am
joefromchicago wrote:
DavidIg wrote:
Joe.
Tell us how you determine right from wrong in an objective manner...with any luck you won't confuse yourself.

You don't believe in objective morality? That makes you a pretty poor objectivist, David. Watch out, they might kick you out of the clubhouse.


Non answer....as expected.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 11:12 am
As I stated in 2006:
    [url=http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2436004#2436004]There can be no such thing as subjective or relative morality. Therefore, if there is such a thing as "morality," it must be objective or absolute.[/url]

My thoughts on moral relativism can be found here.

Now you get to respond to my request:
    Why don't you explain to us again how morality is based on intersubjective agreement and how that can be reconciled with your new-found belief in objectivism.
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Jenifer Johnson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 12:10 pm
joefromchicago : Spoken like a true acolyte in the temple of Rand:


Sorry to inform you, but I have never read any of Rand, only about her, so I can hardly be accused of being one of her worshippers. I am a truth-seeker and a follower of reality. Truth is my GOD! I don't worship anyone that puts on a sock puppet and then tries to play GOD.

So Joe, unless you are a clone of Edgar, I will ask you the same question, what qualifies the right to act by establishing right from wrong?
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joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 01:02 pm
Jenifer Johnson wrote:
Sorry to inform you, but I have never read any of Rand, only about her, so I can hardly be accused of being one of her worshippers. I am a truth-seeker and a follower of reality. Truth is my GOD! I don't worship anyone that puts on a sock puppet and then tries to play GOD.

Coulda' fooled me. You certainly have the jargon down pat. But your unfamiliarity with Rand's works doesn't mean you're not a Randroid. It just means you're an uninformed Randroid. You'd be one of thousands.

Jenifer Johnson wrote:
So Joe, unless you are a clone of Edgar, I will ask you the same question, what qualifies the right to act by establishing right from wrong?

Aren't you a little, well, new to be asking if two well-established members of A2K are clones of each other? Spend a bit more time here -- you might actually develop enough cred to start questioning veterans' identities.

As for your question, I can't make any sense of it. If indeed you are asking me the same question you asked edgar, then I guess you're asking me "do you know the difference between right from wrong?" Are you asking on a definitional level? Or are you asking on a more practical level? If the former, then my answer is "yes." If the latter, then you'll have to give me some more information about what it is you are trying to distinguish as "right" from "wrong."
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Jenifer Johnson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 01:28 pm
Joe,

It is a basic and defining question as to know if one is a criminal or not. A criminal by definition, is one that can not differentiate between right from wrong, either because they are brain dead or because they have a sociopathic tyrant criminal mentality.
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DavidIg
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:11 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
As I stated in 2006:
    [url=http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2436004#2436004]There can be no such thing as subjective or relative morality. Therefore, if there is such a thing as "morality," it must be objective or absolute.[/url]

My thoughts on moral relativism can be found here.


IOW, you have no real idea.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:14 pm
DavidIg wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
As I stated in 2006:
    [url=http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2436004#2436004]There can be no such thing as subjective or relative morality. Therefore, if there is such a thing as "morality," it must be objective or absolute.[/url]

My thoughts on moral relativism can be found here.


IOW, you have no real idea.

Sorry you didn't understand all of that, David. Next time I respond to one of your posts, I'll have to remember to type slower.
0 Replies
 
DavidIg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:15 pm
Jenifer Johnson wrote:
Joe,

It is a basic and defining question as to know if one is a criminal or not. A criminal by definition, is one that can not differentiate between right from wrong, either because they are brain dead or because they have a sociopathic tyrant criminal mentality.


Don't ya love how these geniuses and sub geniuses can't answer such a simple but important question Shocked
It's interesting that some of the members flirt with what sounds like Individualist philosophy, yet none are able to detail the basis of their regard for the individual.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:16 pm
Jenifer Johnson wrote:
Joe,

It is a basic and defining question as to know if one is a criminal or not. A criminal by definition, is one that can not differentiate between right from wrong, either because they are brain dead or because they have a sociopathic tyrant criminal mentality.

Gotta' keep reminding myself: objectivism threads bring out all the nuts.
0 Replies
 
DavidIg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:20 pm
joefromchicago wrote:

IOW, you have no real idea
Sorry you didn't understand all of that, David. Next time I respond to one of your posts, I'll have to remember to type slower.


You obviously either haven't noticed it, or are unable to comprehend it, but JJ and I have explained to you what IR's are and how they operate.
Could you copy and paste a few paragraphs on how you determine right from wrong for us......or is the subject a whole book length load of nonsense{as is typical of most philosophers}.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:36 pm
DavidIg wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:

IOW, you have no real idea
Sorry you didn't understand all of that, David. Next time I respond to one of your posts, I'll have to remember to type slower.


You obviously either haven't noticed it, or are unable to comprehend it, but JJ and I have explained to you what IR's are and how they operate.
Could you copy and paste a few paragraphs on how you determine right from wrong for us......or is the subject a whole book length load of nonsense{as is typical of most philosophers}.

Nope, sorry David. I'd love to give you a complete how-to guide to determining right and wrong, and I am perfectly prepared to give it to you, but I still have an outstanding request to which you have yet to reply. It wouldn't be fair if you expected me to answer all of your questions but you never answered any of mine, now would it? Just to refresh your recollection, here it is for the third time:
    Why don't you explain to us again how morality is based on intersubjective agreement and how that can be reconciled with your new-found belief in objectivism.
0 Replies
 
DavidIg
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:47 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
[]
Nope, sorry David. Just to refresh your recollection, here it is for the third time:
    Why don't you explain to us again how morality is based on intersubjective agreement and how that can be reconciled with your new-found belief in objectivism.


I'm never going to answer this question, at least not to you....so perhaps it's time you exited the thread huh Rolling Eyes
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edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:02 pm
DavidIg wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I suspect we'll see loads of eloquence but minimal comprehension+ the rejection of reality and common sense to boot.

Laughing

Well, I'm off to work. Got to go be evil to my fellow mn today. Hope you can convert me before it's too late.


Remember, this is a philosophy topic in the philosophy section of this message board, I expect people to either know their ****, or to shut their pieholes, ie, rubbishing philosophers or philosophical concepts without logical justification just won't do.

I can't do a damn thing for idiots or the evil.....one must have a degree of intelligence and decency to start with+I'm not here to be popular, I'm here to express the truth, ideally amongst "some" genuine truthseekers.


Don't get shitty.
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DavidIg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:05 pm
An objects definition is objective in that it's definition reflects what the object is, thus A=A simply means a thing is what it is.....but it must be understood that a definition is open ended....we anticipate and are equipped to add further info that reflects what the object is......so extra details don't invalidate the objects nature{unless they contradict what we previously knew about it}.

Whilst the words and language that we use are interchangeable between cultures, the objects details are not, thus we can say that a apple is an apple by virtue of what we know about it, including the fact that it conforms to a life/time cycle....this process isn't magic, it's quite consistent, as such we can have confidence to say we "know" something about such an object.
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DavidIg
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:06 pm
edgarblythe wrote:

Don't get shitty.


Don't wet your pants Rolling Eyes
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edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 08:03 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/health/psychology/31book.html

Who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Yet that essential knowledge, generally assumed to come from parental teaching or religious or legal instruction, could turn out to have a quite different origin.

Harry Campbell
Primatologists like Frans de Waal have long argued that the roots of human morality are evident in social animals like apes and monkeys. The animals' feelings of empathy and expectations of reciprocity are essential behaviors for mammalian group living and can be regarded as a counterpart of human morality.

Marc D. Hauser, a Harvard biologist, has built on this idea to propose that people are born with a moral grammar wired into their neural circuits by evolution. In a new book, "Moral Minds" (HarperCollins 2006), he argues that the grammar generates instant moral judgments which, in part because of the quick decisions that must be made in life-or-death situations, are inaccessible to the conscious mind.

People are generally unaware of this process because the mind is adept at coming up with plausible rationalizations for why it arrived at a decision generated subconsciously.

Dr. Hauser presents his argument as a hypothesis to be proved, not as an established fact. But it is an idea that he roots in solid ground, including his own and others' work with primates and in empirical results derived by moral philosophers.

The proposal, if true, would have far-reaching consequences. It implies that parents and teachers are not teaching children the rules of correct behavior from scratch but are, at best, giving shape to an innate behavior. And it suggests that religions are not the source of moral codes but, rather, social enforcers of instinctive moral behavior.

Both atheists and people belonging to a wide range of faiths make the same moral judgments, Dr. Hauser writes, implying "that the system that unconsciously generates moral judgments is immune to religious doctrine." Dr. Hauser argues that the moral grammar operates in much the same way as the universal grammar proposed by the linguist Noam Chomsky as the innate neural machinery for language. The universal grammar is a system of rules for generating syntax and vocabulary but does not specify any particular language. That is supplied by the culture in which a child grows up.

The moral grammar too, in Dr. Hauser's view, is a system for generating moral behavior and not a list of specific rules. It constrains human behavior so tightly that many rules are in fact the same or very similar in every society ?- do as you would be done by; care for children and the weak; don't kill; avoid adultery and incest; don't cheat, steal or lie.

But it also allows for variations, since cultures can assign different weights to the elements of the grammar's calculations. Thus one society may ban abortion, another may see infanticide as a moral duty in certain circumstances. Or as Kipling observed, "The wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Katmandu, and the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban."

Matters of right and wrong have long been the province of moral philosophers and ethicists. Dr. Hauser's proposal is an attempt to claim the subject for science, in particular for evolutionary biology. The moral grammar evolved, he believes, because restraints on behavior are required for social living and have been favored by natural selection because of their survival value.

Much of the present evidence for the moral grammar is indirect. Some of it comes from psychological tests of children, showing that they have an innate sense of fairness that starts to unfold at age 4. Some comes from ingenious dilemmas devised to show a subconscious moral judgment generator at work. These are known by the moral philosophers who developed them as "trolley problems."

Suppose you are standing by a railroad track. Ahead, in a deep cutting from which no escape is possible, five people are walking on the track. You hear a train approaching. Beside you is a lever with which you can switch the train to a sidetrack. One person is walking on the sidetrack. Is it O.K. to pull the lever and save the five people, though one will die?

Most people say it is.

Assume now you are on a bridge overlooking the track. Ahead, five people on the track are at risk. You can save them by throwing down a heavy object into the path of the approaching train. One is available beside you, in the form of a fat man. Is it O.K. to push him to save the five?

Most people say no, although lives saved and lost are the same as in the first problem.

Why does the moral grammar generate such different judgments in apparently similar situations? It makes a distinction, Dr. Hauser writes, between a foreseen harm (the train killing the person on the track) and an intended harm (throwing the person in front of the train), despite the fact that the consequences are the same in either case. It also rates killing an animal as more acceptable than killing a person.



The above article goes on for another page. I have believed for about 46 years that man the animal has an innate morality, that when we wander from its premises, we become disassociated from reality, that we make errors that make not only ourselves, but others around us miserable. You cannot make up philosophies that go against human instinct and rely on them for a chart to guide our lives. The whole system goes out of whack. Warmth and altruism are as much a part of our mentality as individualism. Right is incorporating the whole shmear, not cherry-picking the parts we are enamored of.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 09:09 pm
A degree of moral absolutism based on genetic predisposition, or so one argument goes.

Nature versus nurture, and so the argument may continue.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 09:27 pm
Earlier, DavidIG wrote:
Remember, this is a philosophy topic in the philosophy section of this message board, I expect people to either know their ****, or to shut their pieholes


then, DavidIg wrote:
I'm never going to answer this question, at least not to you....

Well, it appears you took the "shut your piehole" option. Smart move.

DavidIg wrote:
so perhaps it's time you exited the thread huh Rolling Eyes

Now you're the thread police?
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DavidIg
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 10:49 pm
Joe.

**** off and stop being such a jerk, you remind me of those vindictive and petty fools who pop up in shows like "Days of our Lives"....so either make a genuine attempt to discuss the issues dictated by the thread or exit it.
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