demonicturtle wrote:
Of course we can prove that reality exists (at least our perception of it). This does not mean that we are fully capable of understanding it, so we should not make assumptions regarding the matter.
Remaining indecisive about the origin of concepts does not make me religious.
Our perception of reality is all we have....there's nothing else, so we can be
absolutely sure that reality exists, and we can use science to make sense of its bits and pieces, ie, science deals with fragments of reality, but determining that reality exists is a simple matter of perceiving it....also, determining the origin of reality is beyond the scope of science as science can only deal with bits and pieces, we can't do a test to verify infinity.
Doubt about the nature of
concepts and their connection to reality is the reason philosophers and students end up intellectually detaching themselves from reality, of course, in a physical sense, reality has you under control at al times.
FYI, I've never said that we know everything about all aspects of reality, but we do know that reality{the universe} is absolute and eternal......I can't be contradicted when I make that claim{even though people will do their best}, but when people ass-ume that big bangs and the like are possible, they're operating with
religious premises, and inevitably will fail to provide a logical account of the origin of the universe, as their premises are botched......one can only make logical, coherent and ultimately truthful claims if all parts of the chain are linked, ie, premises, logic, and conclusion.
Remember I said that one has to make a
choice as to whether they're going to be good or bad, and if they're going to be good, they have to know what
distinguishes right from wrong, however, if they actively choose evil or apathy, then ignorance is not only acceptable, but necessary to ensure that one can rationalize their actions.
If you think that because people can make choices, then all bets are off wrt to reality and objectivity, you're wrong and have misunderstood what we're saying....for ex, when JJ speaks of adulthood, the implication is that one has been up close and personal with reality and people and have learnt some basic lessons, and in a bid to ensure their safety and to satisfy their conscience, they must
choose to be mature/rational/scientific/objective.
However, the longer this debate drags out the more I feel like I'm aging lol.
You don't get it ..existence IS relationship. The fact that "you" are prepared to talk about "God" at all means you have a relationship with that concept. The concept of "you" and the concept of "God" are co-existent. Definition of either doesn't come into it. All that matters for practical purposes is the nature of the relationship. 
