Christian propaganda - it's everywhere.

vikorr wrote:

There's a lot of issues with this post.

Firstly, from the examples you give (limited), you base your assumption around a movie, and hearsay? Perhaps you have a few further examples?

Secondly, you list as negatives, things that may not be negatives - what's the matter with being immoral? Or a cynic (which would include most Australians)? And of course, there are the other problems raised by other posters with your given example of an atheist.

Third - what on earth are you talking about, NZ doesn't discriminate? Every country and every people on earth discriminate. If it's not against one religion, it's against something else - it's human nature.

Fourth - saying you don't even know the religion of your PM doesn't mean anything - there are people who no doubt pay attention to it.

Lastly, Christianity, like any other large organisation, engages in propaganda - that just makes it the norm, not the exception.

1. My example is small, I'll say that. I can't think of any other examples at the moment, but I just get the general idea that atheists are not portrayed well. The thing is, I can't recall many atheists, not, I can't recall many bad atheists. Just goes to show that the few atheists that are present are portrayed badly.

2. Come on, that's being nit-picky. You conveniently ignore the drunkenness, bitterness and other aspects. Are they not bad?

3. I was referring specifically to discrimination against religion.

4. I have never read a thing about the PMs religion. No doubt people pay attention to it, but the vast majority don't.

5. I think Christianity's position as a religion gives it a tad more responsibility than just "an organisation".

Overall, I think you are picking on points for the sake of it, rather than because you actually see fault in them. While there is no law against this, it is nicer to be debating against someone who discusses ideas unbiasedly, rather than someone who just doesn't like my ideas because they are anti-Christian.

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jasonrest wrote:

Are there not instances in the film where LT. Taylor is actually talking to God?

Is this not when he becomes reformed? Embracing God = better person?

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Re: Christian propaganda - it's everywhere.

fishin wrote:

If athiests get portrayed as you claim then maybe it's because those that people see as athiests tend to act that way. Take yourself for example...

This is immature and un-called for. One could say the same about certain theists...

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Rockhead wrote:

<smallsnort>

Contribute more than a small snort please.

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saab wrote:

A 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica finds that the non-religious make up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%.
If this also is true in USA you would not meet that many atheists you can descriminate against, espeicially as you cannot tell who is one and who is not.

About 50% of the Americans are members of a church, which is not that high that you can say that Americans are very religious.
According to recent article 71% of the Russians are now members of the Russian Orthodox Church. On the other hand Putin is starting to show that he is against "sects" which includes Baptists, Methodists and other Christian denominations.

That Norway as other countries have a State/Church connection has nothing to do with the religious feelings of people. They all have freedom of religion and can choose to be church members or not and also chose whatever denomination they want to belong to.

First paragraph is besides the point - fact is atheists are not portrayed fairly, and atheists are discriminated against in such things are presidential elections.

Interesting you say this. I think in future you should research before posting facts. "About 50%"? According to Wikipedia it is more like 76.5%. Also, considering we're discussing the USA: in the USA, 14.1% are non-religious.

Third paragraph I agree with entirely. Good show.

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I don't think it's unreasonable to claim that recent presidential nominees whom asserted they were atheistic would have had a decreased chance to get elected.

I don't think it's unreasonable to claim that, given the typical patterns of group dynamics, religious groups may look upon atheists (and for that matter other religious groups) with a certain level of mistrust.

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Well there you go. The Great Chumly has spoken. I know I need not remind you that his word is final. Laughing

Thanks Chumly!

Sorry for the many posts. I will get round to responding to everyone else some other time. Bye!

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The information about 50% I have from an American Lutheran Magazin.

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I don't know about the sweeping comments about portrayals of atheists in religious countries, but the movie Forrest Gump is for the most part a conservative pot shot at liberalism, and its attendant atheism as portrayed by Lt. Dan.

Lt. Dan is a characterization of a certain type of atheist, an anti-theist--active opposition to theism, in that he's bitter about not having fulfilled his destiny in dying in war like his forefathers had, and having to live his life as a paraplegic, and seems to blame it on God. In the storm scene he rails against God, and after his and Gump's near fatal fishing trip turns out to be "a blessing," seeing as how theirs is the only shrimp boat that wasn't destroyed by the storm, and the storm seems to have stirred up bounteous schools of shrimp, comes to terms with him, and his own existence.

Have you noticed how the religious are oftentimes portrayed in the US entertainment media as a bunch of hate-filled, extremist wingnuts?

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InfraBlue wrote:

Have you noticed how the religious are oftentimes portrayed in the US entertainment media as a bunch of hate-filled, extremist wingnuts?

And it's not true?

Oh yeah! You forgot hypocrites..

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aperson wrote:

jasonrest wrote:
Are there not instances in the film where LT. Taylor is actually talking to God?

Is this not when he becomes reformed? Embracing God = better person?

I only mentioned that because you said plainly that he was an atheist and last time I checked atheists don't speak to God; (if he indeed spoke to God in the movie)

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Good points, Infra Blue and Jasonrest. The lieutenant in Forest Gump, now that I think of it, is not actually portrayed as an atheist. He believes in God, all right. And hates Him. Big difference.

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aperson wrote:

Chai,
Despite your personal experiences, America as a whole cares about religion. Personal experience is a miniscule sample of the whole in this case. And the mere fact that no atheist will ever be elected any time soon demonstrates that the people who care are not a small group. If people generally didn't care then atheists could be elected. Simple as that.

What about your personal experience. Watching a movie?

aperson, I don't live encapsulated in an area of 1 square block. As a whole, my experience (and who's experience should I be having?) shows that there is a segment of american society for whom religion reaches fanaticism, but not for the majority.

I've lived all over the United States, from coast to coast, and this is what I've found; In some areas a portion of the church goers of particular religions make a lot of noise. The rest go to their church and don't impose their beliefs on others.

The vast majority of chuch goers mind their own business, and either practice, or not, the tenants of their faith.

Those who do not go to church? (shrugs) They believe in God, or don't.

You live in NZ? What is your personal experience with americans and religion? The media primarily? The media who listens to whoever makes the most noise? The small segment that is vocal, who are surrounded on all sides by the quiet who mind their own faith.

Thing is aperson, you don't live here. I do. I believe my personal experience, plus a skeptical view of the news media, supercedes your viewing of a movie, and the sound bites on your news channel.

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Re: Christian propaganda - it's everywhere.

aperson wrote:

fishin wrote:
If athiests get portrayed as you claim then maybe it's because those that people see as athiests tend to act that way. Take yourself for example...

This is immature and un-called for. One could say the same about certain theists...

Uncalled for? I don't see you denying it...

And yes, one could easily say the same for theists. You seem to be doing exactly that. Why do you think this only applies to theists? That's the interesting question.

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aperson wrote:

saab wrote:
A 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica finds that the non-religious make up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%.
If this also is true in USA you would not meet that many atheists you can descriminate against, espeicially as you cannot tell who is one and who is not.

About 50% of the Americans are members of a church, which is not that high that you can say that Americans are very religious.
According to recent article 71% of the Russians are now members of the Russian Orthodox Church. On the other hand Putin is starting to show that he is against "sects" which includes Baptists, Methodists and other Christian denominations.

That Norway as other countries have a State/Church connection has nothing to do with the religious feelings of people. They all have freedom of religion and can choose to be church members or not and also chose whatever denomination they want to belong to.

First paragraph is besides the point - fact is atheists are not portrayed fairly, and atheists are discriminated against in such things are presidential elections.

Interesting you say this. I think in future you should research before posting facts. "About 50%"? According to Wikipedia it is more like 76.5%. Also, considering we're discussing the USA: in the USA, 14.1% are non-religious.

Third paragraph I agree with entirely. Good show.

With regard to sabb's 3rd comment and your agreement with it - IMO, it's a short-sighted view in an attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

The fact that people in Norway may have freedom of religion and might chose a religious belief other than the state sponsored religion doesn't change the fact that 83% of the population in Norway do in fact, claim the state sponsored religion as their own. It is silly to claim that a State sponsored religion has nothing to do with people's religious beliefs when there is a very high correleation between the state sponsored religion and the beliefs of the people within that state. Do you really thing that 83% of Norweigan's would claim to be members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway if the state sponsored religion was the Methodist Church?

Compare that to your own stats on religious beliefs in the U.S..

In a society where 83% of the people are not only Christian (and follow one protestant denomination within Christianity) it is less likely that the issue would come up as often or be as controversial simply because others assume that everyone else is of the same religion as themselves. People generally don't have heated discussions about issues where they are in agreement.

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It is incorrect to ask if 83% of the Norwegians would be Methodists, because Lutheranism is the "historical" religion of Norway, a sort of reformed Roman Catholicism. State-sponsored religion is a term I have never seen. The correct term is the"established church" or "state church". That 83 percent still belong to the church in a country which is secular--it is very easy to leave the church, only a formality--show that Norwegians identify with this church as part of their cultural history and not because it is somehow forced on them. The liturgy, the hymns, the theological and religious thinking have evolved through the centuries and our an expression of the country of Norway. In fact, one could say that if the Norwegians leave the church they still remain Lutherans because their religion is part of their whole make-up. It is strange that both non-religious people outside of Norway attack this high membership, seeing it as a threat to their thinking because of the high level of education and standard of living in secular Norway and still people remain in the church---and religious people from America attack the Church of Norway because it is not "American" enough, i.e., small, struggling, pluralistic, etc.

There is something wonderful about being a citizen in a country where most people share your religion and traditions. This is a similar feeling to being in a big family. In some countries this feeling of togetherness can only be achieved politically or via nationalism. Recent polls have indicated that the Scandinavians are the most content people in Europe. This contradicts the American stereotype of sad people heading for depression and suicide. One explanation for this contentment AND optimism is the feeling that one can trust others, something going back even to Viking times.

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saab wrote:

The information about 50% I have from an American Lutheran Magazin.

That's not exactly the most neutral source, is it?

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jasonrest wrote:

aperson wrote:
jasonrest wrote:
Are there not instances in the film where LT. Taylor is actually talking to God?

Is this not when he becomes reformed? Embracing God = better person?

I only mentioned that because you said plainly that he was an atheist and last time I checked atheists don't speak to God; (if he indeed spoke to God in the movie)

Meh I can't remember. Can anyone fill me in?

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Ok Chai, your point is taken, but you still have not dealt with the point of election.

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Re: Christian propaganda - it's everywhere.

fishin wrote:

aperson wrote:
fishin wrote:
If athiests get portrayed as you claim then maybe it's because those that people see as athiests tend to act that way. Take yourself for example...

This is immature and un-called for. One could say the same about certain theists...

Uncalled for? I don't see you denying it...

And yes, one could easily say the same for theists. You seem to be doing exactly that. Why do you think this only applies to theists? That's the interesting question.

Come on. What do you want me to say? "THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!"? Do you want me to spell it out for you?

The links between atheism and the characteristics portrayed are unfounded. The links between theism and some of the characteristics portrayed are founded.

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Christian propaganda - it's everywhere.

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