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Trying not to be a bore but I have another Jesus question

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 02:35 pm
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.
Superman comics could also be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


Be my guest.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 03:22 pm
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


You're missing a few points here. Some of the early christians were anxious not to antagonize the Romans, and hence the tortured and rather bizarre story of "passion week." This also lead to an account which lent itself easily to the depiction of Jews as "Christ-killers," against whom almost any enormity could be justified.

But the point of the historicity of the account is crucial to the consideration of the claims that the bobble is divinely-inspired, inerrant truth, revealed truth. The "new testament" is so much at odds with historical reality as to make the claim specious. So many christians (by whom i do not refer necessarily to people such as you, who obviously attempt to derive something plausible from a dubious source) are wedded to the idea of a divinely-inspired, inerrant truth in scripture because it then authorizes their insistence upon their social and "moral" agenda. So the question of whether or not scripture is reliable, or whether "they are [just] stories" is very important in the struggle between the fundamentalists who would impose on everyone around them and those who don't intend to be imposed upon.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 04:17 pm
I agree, Set. There's a baby in that bathwater someplace though, and not the one of the NT. Much of the midrash of the OT is very valuable when taken as just that. Also, the realization that only the small Letter of James (supposedly written by Jesus' brother) in the NT predates Paul's influence gives additional support to question the inspirational source. All of the canonical gospel-writers would have been aware of Paul's teachings, which is why I believe that modern day Christianity is closer to the religion of Paul than the teachings of Jesus. Martin Luther once said he wished the Letter of James had been omitted from canon because it didn't fit with the rest -- no big question why.

Paul, in his letters, focuses primarily on the divinity of Christ rather than the teachings and/or life of Jesus. The study of Paul's own life gives excellent insight into why he needed a redeemer rather than a teacher. The canonical gospel writers later wrote stories (additional midrash, if you will) that were eventually accepted as Truth by the early Church. Those gospels that didn't fit the party line were omitted and mostly destroyed as heretical. (I realize this isn't new news to you -- just putting it out there.) The idea of the populace being allowed to see heretical books and make up their own minds was anathema. The Church calls them "flocks" for a reason.

The belief that the end of the world was coming soon was pervasive. The idea of a redeeming Messiah (just accept Him and you too can be saved!) was like fresh milk to a starving baby. They wanted to accept the message. Then, over time, they had to accept it or be killed.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 04:21 pm
JPB wrote:
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.
Superman comics could also be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


Be my guest.
What makes Superman Superman is not his Kryptonian heritage, and the yellow Sun of Earth, but his childhood in Kansas and his parents, Jonathan and Martha Kent. It is his upbringing, the ideals and morals taught and lived out by Clark Kent that makes Superman a hero instead of the global conqueror that he was originally sent to Earth to be, sent to impose on humanity "proper Kryptonian ideals" as his mother put it.

An underlying moral theme of Superman is the recurring unasked, but obvious question to readers, of what would you do if you were Superman in this situation? What would you do with the powers of Superman if you had them?

The character of Superman was created by two Jews, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (a Canadian!) leading many to identify several Jewish cues in Superman's origin. Like Moses set loose on a river in his basket, the son of a doomed people, Superman was sent to Earth in a rocket ship, and like Moses, was raised in a mysterious land. However, most people don't know that Superman's powers are the unforeseen byproduct of Kryptonian eugenics, although this was added decades later as part of the back story to explain why Krypton exploded.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 04:29 pm
I wish to know your religious views.
Jesus is a son of a jew.
Should we need Christians
while jewish people are getting the nasty recollection of a Christian ?
Why the hell you need this kind of system?
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 04:32 pm
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.
Superman comics could also be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


Superman works. I personally used Spider-Man, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings as my moral authorities when I was growing up. Well, still do, really... Just tell Mo stuff like "anger, hate, agression--the dark side are they," and "with great power comes great responsibilty," and you're all set! I turned out pretty righteous. Razz
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 05:21 pm
Frodo Baggins: It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance.

Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.
0 Replies
 
Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 05:35 pm
JPB wrote:
I agree, Set. There's a baby in that bathwater someplace though, and not the one of the NT. Much of the midrash of the OT is very valuable when taken as just that. Also, the realization that only the small Letter of James (supposedly written by Jesus' brother) in the NT predates Paul's influence gives additional support to question the inspirational source. All of the canonical gospel-writers would have been aware of Paul's teachings, which is why I believe that modern day Christianity is closer to the religion of Paul than the teachings of Jesus. Martin Luther once said he wished the Letter of James had been omitted from canon because it didn't fit with the rest -- no big question why.

Paul, in his letters, focuses primarily on the divinity of Christ rather than the teachings and/or life of Jesus. The study of Paul's own life gives excellent insight into why he needed a redeemer rather than a teacher. The canonical gospel writers later wrote stories (additional midrash, if you will) that were eventually accepted as Truth by the early Church. Those gospels that didn't fit the party line were omitted and mostly destroyed as heretical. (I realize this isn't new news to you -- just putting it out there.) The idea of the populace being allowed to see heretical books and make up their own minds was anathema. The Church calls them "flocks" for a reason.

The belief that the end of the world was coming soon was pervasive. The idea of a redeeming Messiah (just accept Him and you too can be saved!) was like fresh milk to a starving baby. They wanted to accept the message. Then, over time, they had to accept it or be killed.


This^^ is the kind of thing I'd personally emphasise in particular. Plus as an example in light of Hell and Salvation, one of those heretical gospels (Thomas) has lines like:

Quote:
...the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.


and...

Quote:
I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 07:22 pm
cyphercat wrote:
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.
Superman comics could also be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


Superman works. I personally used Spider-Man, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings as my moral authorities when I was growing up. Well, still do, really... Just tell Mo stuff like "anger, hate, agression--the dark side are they," and "with great power comes great responsibilty," and you're all set! I turned out pretty righteous. Razz
And here I thought Cat Woman would be your moral authority

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6299/catwoman1ek3.jpg
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:24 pm
The concept of hell is a pagan idea that has slithered its way into nominal christianity as a tool for the priesthood to gain control over their paying constituents.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:40 pm
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:42 pm
...must've been a slow day in Vatican that day...
0 Replies
 
2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:58 pm
Boomer, I doubt you could be a bore if you tried.

----------------------------

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/2PacksAday/silver_S_clouds1.jpg
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 06:21 am
neologist wrote:
The concept of hell is a pagan idea that has slithered its way into nominal christianity as a tool for the priesthood to gain control over their paying constituents.


The first recorded description of hell comes from Sumarian texts. The same hell mentioned there managed to find it's way not only into Christianity but into most of the other organized religions as well. The same hell from the Sumarian texts is used in Greek and Norse mythology, by the Egyptians, Zoastrians, etc...

Christianity had it's origins in Judism and carried the entire Old Testament with it. It's unlikely that Christianity made any conscious choice to lift the concept wholesale in an effort to enrich their priests. It is much more likely that they simply carried on the teachings that had existed in Judism for thousands of years before them.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 06:51 am
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Chumly wrote:
JPB wrote:
Don't forget -- the Bible is not front page reporting. They are stories - some of them beautiful, some of the horrific that can be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.
Superman comics could also be used to teach values and morals without getting bogged down by what is and what isn't historically accurate.


Be my guest.
What makes Superman Superman is not his Kryptonian heritage, and the yellow Sun of Earth, but his childhood in Kansas and his parents, Jonathan and Martha Kent. It is his upbringing, the ideals and morals taught and lived out by Clark Kent that makes Superman a hero instead of the global conqueror that he was originally sent to Earth to be, sent to impose on humanity "proper Kryptonian ideals" as his mother put it.

An underlying moral theme of Superman is the recurring unasked, but obvious question to readers, of what would you do if you were Superman in this situation? What would you do with the powers of Superman if you had them?

The character of Superman was created by two Jews, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (a Canadian!) leading many to identify several Jewish cues in Superman's origin. Like Moses set loose on a river in his basket, the son of a doomed people, Superman was sent to Earth in a rocket ship, and like Moses, was raised in a mysterious land. However, most people don't know that Superman's powers are the unforeseen byproduct of Kryptonian eugenics, although this was added decades later as part of the back story to explain why Krypton exploded.


I wasn't being snippy with you, Chumly. There are many sources and stories that can be used to teach morals and positive values. If Boomer thinks Mo would related better to Superman than Jesus then Superman it should be. However, the fact remains that Mo lives in a world where folks will tell him he's going to hell if he doesn't embrace their personal choice of savoir. Knowledge of what they're talking about is the best defense againt those who would scare the bejesus out of a little kid.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:48 pm
Chumly wrote:
And here I thought Cat Woman would be your moral authority

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6299/catwoman1ek3.jpg


I do of course turn to Catwoman for fashion guidance, but not morals.

---------

okay, no more thread derailing from me! Sorry, Boomer Smile
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 09:16 pm
Hi-ya JPB,

Heaven & hell = carrot & stick.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 12:39 pm
Wow, Boomer. Mo's grandparents sure opened a can of worms, didn't they?!

Lessee...at the age of 7, Mo is still too young to young to understand concepts like Messianic prophecy, historical context and Catholic vs. Protestant imagery...

I would just tell him that people have all sorts of different ideas about what happens when we die. If you question it yourself, tell him that. Ask him what he thinks! Encourage him to respect others' beliefs, but tell him that he can make up his own mind when he is old enough to study it for himself.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 12:47 pm
You would encourage him to show deferential regard for all beliefs. I would teach a healthy skepticism for all unsubstantiated beliefs.
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 02:11 pm
Chumly wrote:
You would encourage him to show deferential regard for all beliefs. I would teach a healthy skepticism for all unsubstantiated beliefs.

I don't think Eva is ecouraging "deferential regard" at all, but respect for
the rights of other people to believe what they want. I'm sorry, Eva, I
don't mean to be putting words in your mouth, but I find that most
people, when they say "to respect others' beliefs", mean to respect the
person and that person's right to believe.
0 Replies
 
 

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