Is Reality a Social Construction ?

@Fountofwisdom,

Keep in mind that for hundreds of years western philosophy was a dry well, because of mistakes made. There are signs of hope these days but in order to maintain progress the wisdom of the East must continue be worked in.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

an "I" separate from the other is an illusion of the ego, a necessary illusion

.

Thats the central issue !

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@Fountofwisdom,

Occam's razor is related to "the need to predict and control". If you start with that you will be trying to punch your way out of a paper bag.

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You're debating in terms of General Symantics, conceived in 1938 by Alfred Korzybski (1879-1950) -- but stems back to:

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust

and

All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions.
Leonardo da Vinci

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@fresco,

I don't know where you got that. By Occams razor I mean that given two correct solutions, then the most succinct be chosen.
Besides punching your way out of a paper bag is a simple task, even metaphorically. you are literally tying yourself in knots.

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@Fountofwisdom,

Quote:

I don't know where you got that. By Occams razor I mean that given two correct solutions, then the most succinct be chosen

which is to say the solution which language better supports has the advantage, so much so at times that it has a monopoly. Problem is poorly developed language may be the problem, not the proposed solution.

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@Lightwizard,

Quote:

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust

and

All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions.
Leonardo da Vinci

or as I suspect Ram Dass would say, the problem is not the reality, it is your consciousness level.

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@Fountofwisdom,

Yes-wrong metaphor ! "Juggling with jelly" would have been more apt.

What is a "correct solution ?" ....we are back to the problem of "satisfactory explanation"....and "satisfaction" implies prediction and control. Occam merely advocates taking the simplest path to fulfil this. It is a utilitarian principle rather than an epistemological one.

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@fresco,

Quote:

Occam merely advocates taking the simplest path to fulfil this. It is a utilitarian principle rather than an epistemological one.

it is not for nothing that the principle learned first in engineering school is that the simplest solution is the best one.

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@Fountofwisdom,

Logical propositions cannot even be "true" temporarily. Their truth (or validity) is formal rather than actual. For example: a statement about the logical relationship between A and B rests on the fiction that A (all As) and B (all Bs) are some kinds of things whereas the content of reality is in a constant state of process or flux. No being or things in reality, only in our heads. The ego-self or "I" is the most pervasive and "useful" of such fictions.

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@JLNobody,

LOL - there certainly are more armchair psychologists on this forum than any objectivists, but we likely all have to be a combination of subjectivist and objectivist. The subjectivist is driven by belief and desire, the objectivist by reason and logic. Collectivism is really the trait of the subjectivist -- reality is not a social construction entirely and we each see it in slightly different shades to very opposing shades.

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@Lightwizard,

Hi, GW. Long time no see.

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@fresco,

Fresco quoted hawkeye10 saying:

Quote:

Re: hawkeye10 (Post 3530151)
Quote:
an "I" separate from the other is an illusion of the ego, a necessary illusion .

...and then wrote:

Quote:

Thats the central issue !

Not the way you folks use it!

The way you folks use it ...it is an absolute truth to be shared with others...like "There IS a GOD" or "There are no gods" or "There are many gods" or...

...well, you get the idea.

To you folks, it is an absolute truth just like the rest of those things.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

To you folks, it is an absolute truth just like the rest of those things

right, on the absolute plane of existence I don't exist, on the relative plane I do.....what is your problem with this way of looking at it?

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@hawkeye10,

As I understand your statement, Hawkeye, you do not exist on an absolute plane, just as nothing does. This is a perspective I share with you. As I see it, all is process: or processes which occur relative to other processes. Reality is a unity of multiplicities. Nothing stands alone of, or in, itself, only as a component of an unthinkably complex and immense "system" of (interdependent) processes. Most people--including intelligent people--practice Naive Realism which construes reality as a world of absolute (independent) static things.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

right, on the absolute plane of existence I don't exist, on the relative plane I do.....what is your problem with this way of looking at it?

Frank,

Try moving away from "belief systems". Think about ..North vs South.. Up vs Down...Frank dreaming vs Frank awake ....Frank aged 6 vs Frank aged 60...

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@hawkeye10,

Hawkeye wrote:

Quote:

right, on the absolute plane of existence I don't exist, on the relative plane I do.....what is your problem with this way of looking at it?

To his credit, JL was a bit more circumspect:

Quote:

As I understand your statement, Hawkeye, you do not exist on an absolute plane, just as nothing does. This is a perspective I share with you.

Folks…are you truly as blind to the fact that this is a belief system that you are peddling as absolute truth…just as Christians promote their belief system as absolute truth???

Really???

Has your guesswork about what the Reality is actually gotten so ingrained that you cannot recognize it for guesswork?

I am astounded.

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@Frank Apisa,

The irony, Frank, is that transcendence of "self" is anything but a belief system. On the contrary it is a position which questions "common sense" beliefs about reality. The point seems to be lost on you that"the Frank" that continuously types the words "belief system" and "guess" does so because "it" (that Frank) is triggered into existence by its relationship to the medium "a2k + JLN + fresco....etc) . Observation will yield that various "Franks" are triggered by other relationship scenarios some of which bear no resemblance to each other..indeed some Franks may be moved to chastise or be ashamed of other Franks!

Will the real Frank raise his hand please ! Smile

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@fresco,

Fresco,

I’ll repeat two things:

One, I love you guys like crazy.

Two, what you are peddling is a belief system WITHOUT A DOUBT.

But if, like the Christians and the hard-core atheists, you absolutely refuse to look your beliefs (yes, guesses about Reality) in the eye...you are stuck with 'em.

Enjoy.

f.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank,

Next time you have an argument with yourself, let us know who won !

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