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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 07:54 am
Wow, interesting about California!


Meanwhile, I want to clarify a point that I think I've made but I want to be certain. I think that a lot of people just plain don't like Hillary and don't want to vote for her, period. The fact that there are so many of those makes me nervous, in and of itself.

But that's not all. I think that there is another, separate group of people who currently are neutral or maybe even positive towards Hillary but whose distaste would be easily triggered by a less scrupulous opponent than Obama. I do think there is lots and lots of dirt that Obama is purposely not using -- that is, he has access to it (the world does, for most of it), but that's not the kind of campaign he wants to run. "Sat on the board at Wal-Mart" is about as low as he goes. And 527s who support him know that they'd hurt his overall message if they make a montage of Monica and Vince Foster and "I did not have sex with that woman" and Hillary presiding over the health care stuff and then ending with a black screen with white letters saying "Do you really want four more years of this?"

But in a general election, I think that's going to come out. Whether it's the Republican candidate or his surrogates (527's, whatever), I think they're going to go after her with all they've got and I think they've got a lot -- much, much more than they've got on Obama. And I think it will be effective.

From the recent New Yorker article:

Quote:
Peter Wehner served in the Bush White House until August, 2007, working for Karl Rove, the Administration's chief strategist. Wehner, who is now a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, in Washington, said that, as a candidate, Hillary Clinton would provide a "much more target-rich environment" than Obama. Republicans wouldn't need to uncover new scandals; they would simply remind voters of the not so distant Clinton wars. "Certain regions of your brain are latent," Wehner said. "But if there's a word or a sound or a memory that you hear, that region of your brain lights up again. And I have a feeling that, with Bill and Hillary Clinton, there are latent regions of the brain that will light up, and, if the Democrats don't light it up, the Republicans will. And that is going to be Clinton fatigue." As for Obama, Wehner's only complaint is that he's a liberal: "I find him to be very impressive. He would be much more difficult for Republicans to handle. He has much more breakout potential."


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/01/28/080128fa_fact_packer
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:30 am
Well, they can always fall back on suggestively repeating Obama's middle name. Judging by the non-representative sample I've seen, that seems to work suprisingly well.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:38 am
I started writing this earlier today, but I'm late with the topline numbers from CA, Cyclo's already posted them :-D.

But there's numbers from Massachusetts too: the top line numbers there too are encouraging for Obama, but I hope fellow Obama supporters will read through the details about the crosstabs as well.

New Polls in California, Massachusetts encouraging for Obama (but heed the small print)

Rasmussen did a first poll in Massachusetts on Jan 28.; after the SC primaries, about around the time of Obama's event with the Kennedy's, and before the Florida primaries and Edwards dropping out. It has Clinton leading Obama, but only by 6 points, 43% to 37%.

In the previous two weeks, two subsequent Survey USA polls had Hillary leading by 33 and 37 points respectively, her in the upper 50s and him in the lower 20s. There's no apples-to-apples comparison, but definitely a hint of the race having fundamentally changed at the time the poll was conducted.

A day later, on Jan. 29, Rasmussen polled California, "in the hours immediately following Florida's Presidential Primary and before John Edwards dropped out of the race". Here, it also had Clinton leading Obama, but just by 3 points.

43% for Hillary, 40% for Barack. Thats the smallest margin for Hillary measured in the last two months, and it's also the highest rating for Obama in at least two months.

Two warnings to go with that one though: Hillary's rating is still pretty much in line with what she's received throughout the month; and the last time Rasmussen polled the state, it had Hillary the lowest of all roughly concurrent poll. The result of that is that the apples-to-apples comparison between that Rasmussen poll (conducted Jan. 14) and this one actually shows both candidates going up equally: Hillary wins 5 points compared to two weeks earlier, and Obama 7 points. Edwards loses three, and the number of undecideds dropped by 9.

Some of the crosstabs are predictable. The gender gap rules. In California, "Clinton trailed by eight points among men but led by ten among women." In Massachusetts, "Clinton leads by sixteen percentage points among women while Obama leads by five points among men."

Clinton also romps home among those most concerned about jobs and the economy:

    Forty-six percent (46%) [of likely Democratic primary voters in California] said the top voting issue is the economy while 29% mentioned the War in Iraq. Clinton led by fifteen among those who view the economy as the highest priority. Obama led by eight among those who view the War as the top voting issue. .. The economy is seen as the top issue for 51% of [of likely Democratic primary voters in Massachusetts] while 24% named the War in Iraq as the top priority. Clinton leads by twenty percentage points among those who see the economy as the key issue. Obama leads by ten percentage points among those focused on the War.

Some crosstabs, however, run counter to widely held views here on A2K. Clinton, for example, is seen no less favourably than Obama among Democrats, and no less able to win the general elections:

    Overall, 78% of Likely Democratic Primary Voters in Massachusetts have a favorable opinion of Obama. Seventy-seven percent (77%) say the same about Clinton. [..] Obama is viewed favorably by 83% of California's Democratic Primary Voters, Clinton by 79%.
(This is the kind of thing I was referring to on the Obama thread last night, Cyclo.)

On the good news front, the poll shows that Edwards voters in Massachusetts prefer Obama over Hillary: 78% has a favorable opinion of Obama while 58% has a favorable opinion of Clinton.

And on the question that arose after SC of whether Obama can still score among white voters, the California poll has this:

    Obama held a three-point lead among white voters in the state while Clinton had a twenty-seven point lead among Hispanic voters
California is no South Carolina of course, and it sucks about Latinos, but still worth a mention!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:43 am
Quote:
"Certain regions of your brain are latent," Wehner said. "But if there's a word or a sound or a memory that you hear, that region of your brain lights up again. And I have a feeling that, with Bill and Hillary Clinton, there are latent regions of the brain that will light up, and, if the Democrats don't light it up, the Republicans will. And that is going to be Clinton fatigue." As for Obama, Wehner's only complaint is that he's a liberal: "I find him to be very impressive. He would be much more difficult for Republicans to handle. He has much more breakout potential."


What he's referring to here is the research work done by Drew Westen. When I was in new york last week, I lucked out and got to attend a lecture and talked to him briefly. I didn't think to put this question to him (how much would she be disadvantaged by the prior propaganda campaign and the existing narrative?)

At this point, the answer to that isn't clear to me. For one thing, the notion that the electorate will behave as Wehner suggests is itself part of this rightwing narrative and belief system - they, many of them, hate the Clintons and assume everyone else hates them that much too. But this could well be be a misestimation bred of their insularity and their own brains (patterns of activation). An earlier example of this was the impeachment itself where Clinton's general popularity remained high throughout, followed by blowback against the Republicans' assault and clear lust for power from which, for example, Gingrich has never really recovered. So it's not clear whose brains will be 'lit up' in which ways... clinton hate or clinton sympathy/support.

In any case, re Westen, Youtube has some good stuff http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=drew+westen
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:46 am
blatham wrote:
So it's not clear whose brains will be 'lit up' in which ways... clinton hate or clinton sympathy/support.


...or Clinton fatigue. That's what I find most compelling, and what I've seen over and over again in blogs and interviews and amongst people I know, and what matches my own response. I had a great deal of sympathy for Bill and Hillary Clinton at the time. Now I'm quite ready for someone new.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:47 am
Thomas wrote:
Well, they can always fall back on suggestively repeating Obama's middle name. Judging by the non-representative sample I've seen, that seems to work suprisingly well.


You'll like this bit from Ann Coulter's last anti-McCain diatribe...
Quote:
But like the Democrats, McCain thinks if he simply says something over and over again, he can make people believe it's true.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:51 am
sozobe wrote:
blatham wrote:
So it's not clear whose brains will be 'lit up' in which ways... clinton hate or clinton sympathy/support.


...or Clinton fatigue. That's what I find most compelling, and what I've seen over and over again in blogs and interviews and amongst people I know, and what matches my own response. I had a great deal of sympathy for Bill and Hillary Clinton at the time. Now I'm quite ready for someone new.


I love you but I'm not sure you are representative. My mother convinced me that I'm not.

Does anyone know of a search engine and function which would allow me to find first instances of the use of a term like "clinton fatigue"?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:55 am
Google --> news --> "Clinton Fatigue" --> sort by date
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:56 am
Nope, I just tried it and the earliest use is January 2nd -- it's older than that.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:58 am
Try the archive search. I got one from 1999.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:59 am
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22clinton+fatigue%
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:01 am
This article puts it to 1999:

http://www.boston.com/ae/media/articles/2007/12/17/diagnosis_clinton_fatigue/

At any rate, while I suspect that I'll now get a lecture about how it's a conservative construction and that I'm just buying into it, it's a genuine phenomenon that I've observed on a scale much larger than just myself.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:03 am
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22clinton+fatigue%22&scoring=t&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1992&as_hdate=1993&lnav=hist1
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:03 am
sozobe wrote:
...or Clinton fatigue. That's what I find most compelling, and what I've seen over and over again in blogs and interviews and amongst people I know, and what matches my own response.

How do you respond to poll after poll showing that Hillary is still viewed overwhelmingly favourably, and no less favourably than Obama, among Democratic primary voters at least?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:03 am
Boy, what a great search function!!!
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:05 am
nimh wrote:

How do you respond to poll after poll showing that Hillary is still viewed overwhelmingly favourably, and no less favourably than Obama, among Democratic primary voters at least?


I think I answered that here:

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3068685#3068685
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:06 am

Wow, that's a nifty feature! Cant believe I didnt know about it yet!

Here's the graph for "all data":

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4530/clintonfatiguend3.png
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:08 am
sozobe wrote:

Your argument is that if three-quarters of Dem voters still have a favourable opinion of Hillary, it's because they havent really been confronted with agressive attacks on her yet...?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:08 am
sozobe wrote:
This article puts it to 1999:

http://www.boston.com/ae/media/articles/2007/12/17/diagnosis_clinton_fatigue/

At any rate, while I suspect that I'll now get a lecture about how it's a conservative construction and that I'm just buying into it, it's a genuine phenomenon that I've observed on a scale much larger than just myself.


soz
If you look at my second link, the graph goes back to 92. click on a year and stories related to that year come up. Arrows allow movement through time or up/down on graph.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to this question, soz. I'm saying that oft-repeated statements regarding the matter are based on assumptions we can't take for granted.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:10 am
thanks nimh... I somehow wasn't able to paste the image
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