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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 03:15 pm
nimh wrote:
An analysis of the SC results on Politico is relatively unimpressed by talk of a "biracial majority". Channeling Cycloptichorn ( :wink: ), it posits that it's all identity politics so far:

Quote:
It's the demographics, stupid: The black candidate won the black vote. The white woman won white women. The white man won white men.

Iowa, where Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois won women and whites, seems a world away.

The Democratic coalition now seems to be split by little more than the color and gender of its voters. It has been decades since the political left has faced such crass intraparty demographic divides.

On the bright side, it does admit that:

Quote:


TNR commenter dcshungu is even less impressed, and makes an uncomfortable, but valid point:

Quote:
[The] numbers from the exit polls in Nevada will show why no matter how your read SC, you'll conclude that the large proportion of blacks in the electorate made [the] difference. SC is NV redux, except for the large black vote. Nothing has really changed regarding the underlying dynamics other than the good press coverage that this [..] predictable win would generate [..].

[There are] virtually no differences in the make up of his winning coalition in SC and his losing coalition in NV. He had, in fact, won a larger share of the white vote in NV (34%) than he did in SC. But his support among blacks was about the same in both states (~80%). The difference was that NV had only 15% blacks, whereas in SC, black turnout was more than 50% of total.


It's an uphill climb for Obama, all right. However, there are a couple of factors which will work well for him in the next few weeks:

First, many of the Feb. 5th states do have a sizeable AA population.

Second, winning in such grand fashion in SC will give him some added support everywhere in the nation, at least for a short time. While we look into the numbers deeply and analyze every facet of it, the long and short of it is that he won by a lot and that's what most people will see.

Third, Because of the proportional nature of Dem delgation, it seems likely that even if he loses many states he will be picking up large numbers of delegates there. In NH and NV he either tied or got more delegates then Hillary. Now, a win is a win and a loss is a loss, for sure; but given that a brokered convention is a real possibility those delegate pickups will be critically important. I can see Clinton/Obama delegates being split 60/40 on Feb. 5th, and that won't be as terrible for him as many seem to think.

Fourth, Bill and Hillary seem determined to run a dirty campaign, and I can only hope - audaciously, you might say - that people will be turned off by it. Exit polling in SC seems to confirm that this may be a factor.

Obama's never been the favorite, sometimes it's hard to remember that. For him to be where he is right now is a huge success already.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 05:10 pm
All good points, Cyclo...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 05:25 pm
Way back after the Iowa caucuses, I did a poll-by-poll evaluation of which polls got closest to what turned out to be the actual result.

-> Evaluation of the Iowa polls for the Democratic race

Accompanying table:

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/889/iowapollevaluationul4.th.png

-> Evaluation of the Iowa polls for the Republican race

Accompanying table:

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7074/iowareppollevaluationmc8.th.png

Long story short, the rundown at the time was:

  • Big yay for the Des Moines Register polls
  • Regular yays for Zogby and ABC/WaPo
  • Big boo for ARG
Now I failed to do something similar for the polls on New Hampshire, Michigan or Nevada. But in my next post, I should have an overview for the polls on the South Carolina primaries..
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 05:44 pm
How the polls that were (entirely) conducted in the last 5 days before voting day for the Republican primary in South Carolina stacked up compared to the actual result:


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/494/screpspollevaluationaq8.png


Survey USA did clearly the best; but Zogby and Mason-Dixon did well too.

Rasmussen did not do so well, and ARG was clearly the worst - drifting further away from the result in its final poll out.

--------------------------

How the polls that were (entirely) conducted in the last 4 days before voting day - the four days after the contentious debate - for the Democratic primary in South Carolina stacked up compared to the actual result:


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/292/scdemspollevaluationex4.png


The polls did a lot worse job approaching the actual results in the Democratic race than in the Republican contest.

PPP did least badly, and the penultimate poll of Survey USA was among the least bad too, but then its last poll out drifted off further from the actual result.

Mason-Dixon did worse than average, and again ARG was clearly the worst among the bunch.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 06:39 pm
The Christian Science Monitor charts out the demographics of the Feb 5 states.

First observations are pretty commonplace: Obama can count on the black vote (as SC has definitively proven), which is important in GA and AL; and he has an appeal among "independents, college students, and well-educated and affluent whites" that he will have to use.

But is that in itself enough? I wouldnt think so. But the article then continues to make two interesting additional points: Obama will "make precision strikes" in states that overall might go Hillary - in almost all or all states, delegates are accorded proportionally, and in many states, they are awarded by district, meaning that a regional focus can get scores. And Obama is organising in caucus elections in some less obvious states, where Hillary's campaign is almost absent:

Quote:
Obama, however, is taking a more piecemeal approach. Because votes in most Democratic contests are awarded proportionally, he will need to make precision strikes within states where Clinton is strong. Cities with many blacks, like New York, and liberal enclaves, like the San Francisco Bay Area, are on his list of targets, as are independents in New Jersey and California.

He is looking for a rout in his delegate-rich home state of Illinois. But he is also courting voters in six states caucusing on Feb. 5 - Kansas, Minnesota, Colorado, Alaska, North Dakota, and Idaho - where an aggressive turnout drive could reprise his success in Iowa.

"In many of these states, our opponents are not engaged in any organizing," Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, blogged earlier this month. "We firmly believe you cannot build a caucus operation in a matter of four weeks, so we are at a decided advantage."

If Obama captures traditionally "red" heartland states on Feb. 5, he will no doubt argue that they reflect his ability to unite voters across the ideological spectrum against a Republican foe in November.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 07:26 pm
Good article about the "Black/Brown divide" in Time:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1707221,00.html

An excerpt:

Quote:
"It's all about context," says Rodolfo de la Garza, a political-science professor at Columbia University. "It always depends on who else is running. Would Latino Democrats vote for a black candidate over a white Republican? Hell, yes. How about over a Latino Republican? I'm very sure they would." Guerra says name recognition and the role of mediating entities such as unions, political parties and Latino elected officials are also important. For a well-known black politician or incumbent, there is little problem winning Latino voters. But when the candidate is not well-known, it helps to be endorsed by mediating institutions that people trust. Part of Obama's problem in Nevada was that, apart from the late endorsement by the Culinary Workers' Union, he didn't have a lot of that institutional support. And though he has begun to build those relationships in California--including the endorsement of the Latina head of the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor--he may not have enough time to attain the kind of recognition among Latino voters that Clinton enjoys.


(Sound at all familiar?)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 03:05 am
For Nimh:

Frank Luntz on how to rig polls to give you the answers you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9EWDB_zK4

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 02:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
For Nimh:

Frank Luntz on how to rig polls to give you the answers you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9EWDB_zK4

Ha! That was funny. What kind of movies did he say in that funny line? "Even if 100% of the people polled like f*cking [something] movies, they still suck!" Laughing

And yeah, Luntz.. he's up there with Mark Penn in the hallway of sleazy pollsters. Pollsters who see polls as a political tool, rather than as a measurement instrument.

That's the point though, isnt it? Luntz, the intro says, has "run more than 500 polls for corporations and lobbying groups". And quizzed about that work, he says, "the key in survey research is to [..] ask a question in the way that you get the right answer [..]". Which is indeed exactly what corporations and lobbyists will use polls for.

And the video shows in a very funny way how that can be done exactly. Or rather, they have Luntz explain it: "What you will find is that two virtually the same questions, with just a single change of wording, you get a very different reaction".

But then the guys in the video make a big jump, and conclude: "polling is bullshit". Period. All polling, apparently. No distinction, end of story, f*ck em already.

Thats a pity, because in another dimension, they could have taken Luntz' words and the little street experiment as the basis for a kind of manual on how to use polls. How to read them and evaluate them.

For example: dont ever go on just the one poll. If you really never can know for sure about it, why trust this one company about what people think? However, if 10 polls by 10 different polling companies show the same numbers, or the same trends, than you can be sure you're not looking at concocted numbers. I mean, if you're not living in Russia. Even hypothetically, there's just no way they can all be "bought" and bought by the same party even, too.

Second example: follow the money. Who commissioned the poll? Any poll commissioned and thereafter publicized by some corporation that's to do with questions about its work or products is suspect. Any poll commissioned by a lobbying group is suspect. Because yes, there are plenty pollsters willing to get the wanted results for a fee.

Zogby, for example, has been criticized for mixing independent work with doing polls for lobbies, forcing the reader to pay attention to what kind of poll this latest one is.

But polls by the network media about the presidential elections? Do CBS, CNN or NBC push their pollsters to get a favourable result for one or the other candidate? Hardly. If only already because it's much too dangerous a game in town. There's a ton of pollsters out there polling the same questions - it's not like you're doing a poll about the quality of L'Oreal shampoo and you can lie your head off because there's no rival polls revealing how off you are anyway. There's a lot of directly comparative material, and if one of the networks would consistently get numbers off from everyone else's, it loses credibility, people pay less attention to it, and down the line that hurts their bottom line. Same if they consistently turn out to have one candidate or party up higher than the actual results end up being.

And what about polls done by the pollsters independently, not commissioned at all? Thats another chunk of the polls coming out now. The commercial rationale behind them is to acquire prestige and thus new business for the pollster, and this is the better achieved the closer they get to the actual outcome. Again, its just against their bottom line to 'push' their polling numbers in a certain direction.

This is of course most true for established, respected pollsters - Gallup, say. If Gallup was to be found out to manipulate its numbers to achieve political ends, it would be a big blow to its prestige, and thus a money-loser. But a small, relatively unknown pollster on the other hand, like, say, ARG, has a lot less to lose. For an obscure pollster the potential profit involved in manipulation on behalf of a client can more easily outweigh the potential loss involved in risking one's reputation, since there isn't much of one to lose anyhow. So there's a rationale behind trusting blue chip polls over more obscure ones.

The vid could have made, in another dimension, other points too. For example: look at sampling size. The video makes an overly simplistic point about how 10% of passing car drivers think Luntz is an ass based on 10 passing cars. But no serious poll is based on fewer than several hundred randomly contacted respondents. Yet of course you'd be more comfortable with a poll with 1,000 respondents than with one with 350.

Question wording, again an important point. But here too, the poll reader isnt powerless - he can evaluate the worth of a poll, rather than just assume that all polls are BS. Some pollsters publish their whole question form online. You can review the exact questions they used, the choices people were given. Other pollsters publish only topline results. That has partly to do with commercial interest - it's easy for a university to play open card about polls that are only a side activity for them anyhow, while a commercial polling company may be edgy about betraying "the secrets of their success" to rivals. But one inspires more trust than the other, of course.

Blumenthal and Franklin have done great work at pollster.com with their "Disclosure Project", during which they pushed all pollsters doing polling on the primaries in IA, NH, SC and nationally to reveal their basic methodological data and answer questions about how they work. And they publicized who has co-operated and who hasnt, too (naming and shaming..). See the project's results for Iowa late last year. The results also show that one determiner of transparency is whether a pollster is a member of the American Association for Public Opinion Research (AAPOR). Members have to abide to a Code of Professional Ethics & Practice, and transparency is part of that.

So the short story is: yes, polls can be manipulated. They can easily be made to say what you want them to say. But that doesnt mean that most polls are - certainly not in as crowded a field as nation-wide election polling. In a competitive field where many pollsters are asking the same questions, the temptation of manipulating polls for a fee is counterweighed by the pressures of competition that force a pollster to stay in line with the mainstream of polling. And the consumer has ways to review the risks, too - by ignoring commisioned polls and looking only at independent and news media-sponsored ones for example. Or by prioritising polls by AAPOR members. Or just by looking at pollsters' track records. Polling is an approximate science, so any poll can fail to even remotely approach this or that election result, but if a pollster is consistently among those who are furthest off, that's a warning flag.

Polling is not BS; it's just an economy like any other, like, say, banking: there are predatory lenders trolling for bait, there are blue chip banks that, forced by competition and brand prestige, can usually be counted on to be reliable, and there's stuff in between.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 02:20 pm
I didn't say that polling is fake or anything, just thought it was a funny piece that you would appreciate!

I wonder two things tho:

1st, if you can change the results by the wording so easily, how often does this happen by accident?

2nd, you still gotta realize that polling affects the average person who isn't going to be looking in to the methodology and the wording at all. So when they see a poll saying 'Obama ahead by umpty-billion!' they just aren't as likely to dig in and see if it's true or not. It seems an effective way to add legitimacy to a false position.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 02:35 pm
I'm still experimenting with the best ways to illustrate the latest polls for a state..

In NH and IA, I showed running averages, but that has obvious disadvantages, which were discussed here and on the Obama thread at the time. In a way it's better to choose an option that allows the reader to look at each individual poll's results so he can discount possible outliers and the like. So for SC and other graphs since I've gone with column charts.

That's becoming unworkable when there are just too many polls out there though. So here's a new approach...

Florida - Democratic Primaries


http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9185/flpollsd3uh5.png


Each dot represents one poll result. Chart begins with the first poll conducted in January on the left and the latest one on the right. Note that these are polls done by a variety of pollsters. So the line drawn from one poll to the next doesnt represent apple-to-apple comparisons of how support developed over time within one poll; it's just to visually help you identify the overall trend.

In this case, of course, there isnt much of a trend; the candidates have been roughly stable all through the month.

Oh, note one detail in the chart: I've indicated ARG polls as triangles rather than circles. ARG consistently overpolled Hillary Clinton both in IA and SC and far as my memory serves me other states as well, so I thought it'd be useful to set those apart.

Here's the accompanying data table - latest results are on top:

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9683/flpollsd3beb7.png
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 02:44 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I didn't say that polling is fake or anything, just thought it was a funny piece that you would appreciate!

It made me laugh Razz

Cycloptichorn wrote:
1st, if you can change the results by the wording so easily, how often does this happen by accident?

Often enough I suppose - although the longer a pollster is in the business, the better he can estimate the effects of each twitch. But relative newcomers to election polling or those who venture more rarely into it are more likely to make mistakes I suppose.

Interesting example: the Clemson Univ. poll for the Democratic primary race in South Carolina. The way they phrased and paced the question about preferences, they were practically inviting people to say they didnt really know yet. The result was a whopping 36% undecideds, which made the results pretty much useless for anything beyond making the point that people's preferences were still in flux. By not pushing undecideds at all, the poll undercounted Obama support the most egregiously of all 26 polls conducted in January (it pegged it at 27%). This pollster.com post covers that example under 1).

Cycloptichorn wrote:
2nd, you still gotta realize that polling affects the average person who isn't going to be looking in to the methodology and the wording at all. So when they see a poll saying 'Obama ahead by umpty-billion!' they just aren't as likely to dig in and see if it's true or not. It seems an effective way to add legitimacy to a false position.

True true. It's like with the role of the media overall - in this media-driven world, people should be educated about the role and the pitfalls of media coverage just like they learn about history or politics, I'm all for media education as part of school curricula. How to read polls could be a good class :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 02:53 pm
Florida - Republican Primaries


http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7822/flpollsr2dh7.png


Again, each dot represents one poll result. The first poll conducted in January is on the left, the latest one on the right. The line that's drawn from one poll to the next doesnt represent any apple-to-apple comparison of how support developed over time within one poll; it's just to visually help you identify the overall trend.

In this case, the main trend is easy to see: from a four-candidate jumble at the beginning of the month, it's turned into a race of two tiers. Romney and McCain have steadily gone up just as Giuliani and Huckabee have steadily gone down.

Rudy has a slight edge on Huck in the race for third place, but it wont matter anymore anyway; he would have had to win to stand any kind of chance from now on. Meanwhile, Romney's gone up a little more sharply than McCain, but there doesnt seem to be any space between them now whatsoever.

Here's the accompanying data table - latest results are on top:

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/5083/flpollsr2baa8.png
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 03:30 pm
Oooh.. this is useful!

Quote:
Demos for next Democratic primaries

Washington Post
Behind the Numbers

As attention turns to South Carolina and beyond, here are some sex, race and age breakdowns from 2004 contests (where available from NEP exit polls). Percentages listed are the size of each group in the state's Democratic primary in 2004 (e.g., 57 percent of all Democratic voters in South Carolina four years ago were women, 47 percent were African American)...

Code:
Jan. 26
Women White Black Latino 18-29 65+

S.C. 57 51 47 1 9 20


Jan. 29
Women White Black Latino 18-29 65+

Fla. 55 69 21 9 6 35


Feb. 5
Women White Black Latino 18-29 65+

Ariz. 59 72 2 17 7 33
Calif. 53 68 8 16 11 22
Conn. 53 89 7 2 5 27
Del. 57 79 16 2 9 23
Ga. 56 49 47 3 11 19
Mass. 54 90 5 3 9 26
Mo. 52 82 15 1 9 24
N.Y. 57 65 20 11 8 26
Okla. 53 82 8 2 6 30
Tenn. 54 74 23 1 7 23


Feb. 9
Women White Black Latino 18-29 65+

La. 54 48 46 5 7 23


Feb. 12
Women White Black Latino 18-29 65+

Md. 58 58 35 3 8 22
Va. 56 63 33 2 8 23



By Jon Cohen | January 22, 2008; 11:18 AM ET
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:05 pm
A week ago, I posted an overview of polls on the Democratic primary races on Feb. 5.

Here's the overview table that I posted then again (the most recent poll for each state is at the bottom!)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9396/demssupertuesdaystatesgx0.th.png

Now it's time for an overview of polls that have appeared since then. New York and California will have to go in a post of their own, but here are last week's polls from all the other states:

ILLINOIS

Research 2000/KMOV/St Louis Post Dispatch, 1/21-24/2008

51% Obama
22% Clinton
15% Edwards

NEW JERSEY

Quinnipiac, 1/15-22/2008

49% Clinton
32% Obama
10% Edwards

MASSACHUSETTS

Survey USA, 1/22-23/2008

59% Clinton
22% Obama
11% Edwards

GEORGIA

Rasmussen, 1/22/2008

41% Obama
35% Clinton
13% Edwards

MISSOURI

Research 2000/KMOV/St Louis Post, 1/21-24/2008

44% Clinton
31% Obama
18% Edwards

Rasmussen, 1/24/2008

43% Clinton
28% Edwards
24% Obama

TENNESSEE

WSMV/Crawford Johnson, 1/19-21/2008

34% Clinton
20% Obama
16% Edwards

COLORADO

Mason-Dixon, 1/21-23/2008

34% Obama
32% Clinton
17% Edwards

ARIZONA

Cronkite/Eight, 1/17-20/2008

45% Clinton
24% Obama
9% Edwards

Rocky Mountain Poll, 1/20-24/2008

37% Clinton
27% Obama
15% Edwards

ALABAMA

Rasmussen, 1/23/2008

43% Clinton
28% Obama
16% Edwards
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:16 pm
Democratic primaries in California and New York

Update graphs with all polling from December and January on the Dem race in CA and NY:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5458/cademsiz1.png

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6462/nydemswd6.png

Not a whole lotta movement in either race at the moment...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:34 pm
Any real post-SC polls, though? One would think that Obama could get SOME bounce from his win.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:40 pm
Republican primaries in California and New York

Update graphs with all polling from December and January on the Republican race in CA and NY:


http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9803/careps2bj4.png


As Giuliani fizzled and Thompson dropped out, McCain surged first, and Romney followed. Looks like it's going to be a two-man race between them. For now McCain has the advantage, but the Florida outcome is probably going to make all the difference.



http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8311/nyrepsgn1.png


In Rudy Giuliani's own home state, he is currently being trounced by McCain; in a new Gallup poll this week, McCain is 18-19 points ahead of him, at almost double his rating.

He does seem to have hit his floor now though, at about 20%, so perhaps that'll be where he'll end up on Feb 5 if he hasnt dropped out by then.

Romney is climbing in NY too, but only slowly and he's far behind.

Who benefits from high turnout?

Interesting detail in that last Gallup poll is that, perhaps intimidated by how far off the polls were in the last couple of primaries, it gives two sets of numbers for the NY and CA primaries (both Dems and Reps: one for a low turn-out election and one for a high-turnout election.

The differences are not large - 4 points more or less at most for any candidate. But it gives an indication of which candidates would benefit from an increased turnout. In California, a high turnout in the Dem primary would hurt Hillary; in NY, it wouldnt make much difference.

In the Republican primary in NY, a high turnout would benefit Giuliani and also McCain, and would hurt Romney and Huckabee. In California too, it would hurt Romney, but not Huckabee.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:52 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Any real post-SC polls, though? One would think that Obama could get SOME bounce from his win.

No, nothing yet. I mean, there's a couple of polls that were done over several days including Sunday, but there's no poll yet that was conducted entirely after the SC primaries. Tomorrow, day after tomorrow..
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 06:02 pm
Plunking this here for you, nimh, so you don't miss it.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3063707#3063707
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 06:32 pm
Thank you, Butrflynet.

-------------------------------

Republican Primaries - Super Tuesday States

I hadnt yet posted a comprehensive overview of the state of the races in the various Super Tuesday states for the Republican primaries, like I did for the Dems in that table I linked back in above. So here goes, updated today!


http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8994/repssupertuesdaystatesel9.png


Now this one is purely for entertainment only; a map of which Republican candidate would win in which state based on the polling at hand right now!

Purely for entertainment's sake, of course - because if you look at how much the Republican primaries are still in flux, you know that this map should change pretty drastically in the week that's ahead. Especially considering that some of the polls this is based on (Idaho, Utah, Delaware) are months old.

Nevertheless, it gives a nice enough sense of where the respective candidate's strengths are. Blue is for McCain, orange is for Romney, green is for Huckabee, and that red in Delaware represents a lead that Rudy had back in October. (He also led by 5 points in Minnesota back in September, and by by 18 points in New Mexico back in, oh, January 2007, but I decided to just leave those off.)


http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9043/repssupertuesdaymapvn4.png
0 Replies
 
 

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