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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:32 am
I'm a little worried, though. Edwards has frequently been supportive of Obama and critical of Hillary in debates. Kucinich seems likely, from recent actions of his, to do something similar. There already was a perception of Hillary being "ganged up on" when Edwards came to Obama's defense last debate. If Kucinich joins him...?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:33 am
okie wrote:
Thanks nimh, all pretty fascinating.

Thanks! Sorry for not responding directly to your post.. I didnt have much time, so I decided to just barge ahead with those updates that I wanted to write in any case, and left it at that..

okie wrote:
This is the most interesting Republican race in my memory.

Absolutely! And it'd be good to see a greater number of states actually having a say in who will be the nominee, and not have the race all wrapped up after Iowans, New Hampshire and South Carolina.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:34 am
sozobe wrote:
I'm a little worried, though. Edwards has frequently been supportive of Obama and critical of Hillary in debates. Kucinich seems likely, from recent actions of his, to do something similar. There already was a perception of Hillary being "ganged up on" when Edwards came to Obama's defense last debate. If Kucinich joins him...?

Hopefully Edwards will have learnt his lesson... it didnt work out all too well for him last time.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:39 am
nimh wrote:
Meanwhile, on a quickie note re the Democratic race, note the rather surprising outcome of that one poll that's been done on Nevada this month:

Reno Gazette-Journal/Research 2000
1/11-13/2008

32% - Obama
30% - Clinton
27% - Edwards

Wide open race - and it's actually a three-way race again, with a surprising good score for Edwards. Surprising since Obama's got the culinary union, Hillary the teachers, and I havent really heard anything about the Edwards campaign in Nevada.


Yes, I noticed that. The one consistent theme from the first two states was upending conventional wisdom... and the one thing that nobody expects in Nevada is a win for Edwards.

That'd make a crazy race even crazier..! Shocked
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 09:52 am
nimh wrote:
okie wrote:
Thanks nimh, all pretty fascinating.

Thanks! Sorry for not responding directly to your post.. I didnt have much time, so I decided to just barge ahead with those updates that I wanted to write in any case, and left it at that..

okie wrote:
This is the most interesting Republican race in my memory.

Absolutely! And it'd be good to see a greater number of states actually having a say in who will be the nominee, and not have the race all wrapped up after Iowans, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

Do you follow politics all over the world, or is the U.S. uniquely interesting to you, besides your own area of the world? Just curious.

If all Americans were as interested in this as you are, we would all be alot better off. Most people here don't educate themselves very much. Their votes are based on hearsay, a quote here, a quote there, or some misconception formed at some irrelevant point along the way.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 03:41 pm
okie wrote:
Do you follow politics all over the world, or is the U.S. uniquely interesting to you, besides your own area of the world? Just curious.

Yeah, elections are like crack to me Razz . OK, I'm joking. Well, sort of... :wink:

I do follow politics pretty closely in general, especially anything directly related to the party system, elections, campaigns. But of course focusing a lot on one country means focusing less on others. The US does kind of take precedence (no, thats not the right word..) over other countries, but it was not always that way. The 1996 elections, for example, I hardly knew a thing about it.

Even in 1992, I did stay up through election night watching CNN in our students dorm till the early morning, but of the preceding campaign and the primaries I'd just picked up little bits. I remember finding Tsongas a sympathetic guy, and liking Jerry Brown politically, and then when Clinton took dominance I kinda stopped following it again until close to election night.

There's been other countries. I followed some of the British and German elections almost as intensely as these US ones. Well, almost - one big difference is that the campaign season itself is simply much shorter. The Dutch ones of course, too. And there was a time when I could explain all the intricacies of the various parties, up to splinter parties of 1% or 2%, in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Bulgaria. Russia too. But that was in the 90s, I'm afraid I've taken my eye off the ball on most of those countries in this decade. Just Hungary I still know pretty well - though ironically, I am much less aware of what happens on a day-to-day level than I am of US politics, because I cant read the newspapers...

But yeah, basically I'm a total geek Razz
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 03:45 pm
Re tonight's results from Michigan, I'm going to go out on a limb for this one and make a prediction rather than just describe the situation:

1. Romney
2. McCain
3. Huckabee
4. Paul

On the eve of the caucuses in IA I had a feeling it would be Obama + Huckabee, but I shrug it off and left it at a more sensible 'too close to call' here. So I'm sure that now that I did make a prediction, the outcome will not conform to my hunches :wink:

I found something disturbing in the polls for the Democratic primaries in SC, by the way - the top line numbers there are so stable, but underneath something unsettling appears to be going on. More in a bit.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 06:30 pm
I think I heard the turnout is not high, and possibly that would favor Romney? We will soon start hearing projections from exit polls, so it won't be long.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 06:53 pm
Democratic primary - South Carolina

Polling from South Carolina has been as stable on the Democratic side as it was volatile on the Republican side. But are there strong currents going on underneath?

Here are the topline numbers:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8456/scdems2ye9.png

The four pollsters that have polled the state this month have been in overwhelming agreement on Hillary's support. All six polls had it at 30-33%.

On Obama too, many of the numbers are close. Four of the six polls had him at 40-44%.

Two exceptions bookend Obama's results. A Survey USA poll from right after the Iowa caucuses had Obama at an impressive 50%, in the afterglow of his victory there. But the latest Rasmussen poll, held last Sunday, had Obama down to 38%, shrinking his lead over Hillary to just five points.

Rasmussen is the only pollster that did more than one poll this month. Comparing its polling from January 6, 9 and 13, Obama goes from 42% to 42% to 38%; Hillary from 30% to 30% to 33%; Edwards from 14% to 15% to 17%.

For anyone who thought that the race flaps that heightened tensions between the Hillary and Obama camps in the past week must surely benefit Obama, that's a bit of a dissapointment.

That's not the end of it. Although the topline numbers are very stable, the crosstabs of preferences among black and white voters are not. The electorate is evenly split between the two groups, so if you look at the numbers for each group, you're looking at samples half the size of the overall numbers, and of course that does double the risks in interpreting the numbers. Nevertheless, compared to the stability of the topline numbers, these numbers look striking:


http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6885/scdems2racebr1.png

(I have no numbers by race on the Rasmussen poll of 1/9.)


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5640/scdems2racegraphzn1.png


First things first:

  • Among African-American voters, Obama is now the clear favourite. He led Hillary in all the January polls. And this has not always been the case. In at least one poll from early December, the two candidates were still neck-and-neck, and back last summer Hillary was comfortably leading Barack among black voters here.

  • Hillary does retain a significant support base among African-Americans in SC: roughly a quarter to a third of them still prefer her. That's more than you can say for John Edwards, whose support among blacks is in the single digits.

  • Among white voters, the candidates are closer to each other in support. Hillary does have an edge in all but one poll, but the margins are smaller. And it's a three-way race here between Clinton, Obama and Edwards.
Then the thing that caught my eye and worries me a bit:

  • In the first three polls, the three candidates were close to neck-and-neck among whites. In the Rasmussen and IA polls, they were all bunched up at 26-32% each. In the Survey USA poll Hillary had a lead of about 10 points, with Obama and Edwards running equal.

  • Follows a four-day break from polling, and two new polls done in the middle of the to-and-fro about race between Hillary and Obama show significantly different results. Suddenly Hillary leads Edwards by 10 - and Obama by 20. Obama's support among whites is no longer 27-31%, but noticeably lower at 19-21%. Hillary (30-38% becomes 40-42%) and Edwards (26-29% becomes 30-31%) appear to benefit.

  • Of course, not just are the subsamples small, but you're also comparing apples and oranges if you compare the numbers from different pollsters. But from one Rasmussen poll to the next we see the same thing: Obama's support among whites drops from 27% to 21%, while Hillary's increases from 32% to 40%.

  • Among black voters there is no such apparent pattern in the volatility.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 06:57 pm
Now the succession of random race references from the Hillary camp the past week has infuriated many, of course. It's possible that it was all unfortunate coincidence, but as Ezra Klein wrote,

    "it's hard to imagine this many sophisticated, [i]liberal [/i]political operators making this many mistakes, of this type. Not saying it's impossible, merely hard to imagine. And so it's worth wondering if there's not a coordinated strategy among the Clintons to force a conversation over race."
But why in heaven's name would such a conversation be benefitial to Hillary, you might ask, since at first sight she seems to have just been embarassed multiple times? Ezra posited:

    "[It's] not a conversation that will be harmful to Obama -- the Clintons have, after all, had to spend a fair amount of time apologizing, and clarifying -- but a conversation that will be [i]harmful to his message[/i]. If Obama has to spend a lot of time talking about race, it's hard for him to be the post-racial candidate. If he has to spend a lot of time on divisive topics, it's hard for him to make an appeal for unity. And if he gets thrown off message at this point in the campaign, it will be exceedingly hard for him to blunt Clinton's momentum. And, whether it's a coordinated strategy on the part of the Clintons or not, it's definitely what's happening."
On the same subject, Noam Scheiber chimed in that

    "[..] if you were cynical, you could argue that the Clintons have an interest in polarizing the nomination fight along racial lines--the idea being that, even if it hurts them in the short-term (with African Americans in South Carolina), Obama can't win if he becomes the "black candidate," which is what racial polarization accomplishes."
Scheiber warned that "if it becomes a race between a "white candidate" and a "black candidate,"' Hillary probably wins.

Now in principle you'd expect a backlash against Hillary's comments. But not, apparently, from SC voters, and neither from Democratic voters in Florida (table forthcoming). If there was an attempt to force the issue of race to surface in the public awareness, do the South Carolina polling numbers suggest that it was indeed successful in putting some white voters off of Obama?

That would be majorly depressing; if even just bringing the subject up - even in an immediate context that made Obama look like the wiser and more courteous candidate - instantly Pavlovs some white voters away from him, that's pretty disconcerting. And if there was any kind of deliberate attempt to do so, that's pretty low. But it'd also be food for thought, because anything Hillary's campaign might do now will only be a shadow of what the Republicans would unleash in a general election campaign against Obama.

Anyway, it's all speculation, because we're really just talking three polls vs two polls, with only Rasmussen providing two subsequent polls that allow for an apples-to-apples comparison. A lot of the variation in the numbers can just be statistical noise, especially since you're looking at subsets. But I found that graph above a little unsettling.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:35 pm
okie wrote:
I think I heard the turnout is not high, and possibly that would favor Romney?

Yep, that would favor Romney.

I also saw that something like two-thirds of the voters in the Republican race were Republicans (as opposed to Independents or Democrats), which would be much more than in 2004, when McCain won... So Mitt's looking good.

Of course, apart from the snow and ice it may also have something to do with Romney having spent more in MI than McCain and Huckabee put together.

nimh wrote:
Now in principle you'd expect a backlash against Hillary's comments. But not, apparently, from SC voters, and neither from Democratic voters in Florida (table forthcoming).


Here's an update on polls from Florida:


http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/5930/flpollsdir7.png
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:01 pm
Michigan exit polls in:

Republicans

Democrats
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:07 pm
nimh wrote:
Michigan exit polls in:

Democrats


Looks like Hillary barely got a majority in a race without opponents..

But she did get 70% of the white female vote. And 77% of those over 65, and 69% of those with only high school or less.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:11 pm
So according to early results and exit polls, it looks like Romney is going to win, and possibly by more than anticipated. Instead of Romney being toast, it could be McCain, not right away, but if he loses the next one, perhaps, and Michigan won't help him in the next one.

For Democrats, the Clintonistas better hope the undecideds don't beat her. Laughing
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:22 pm
okie wrote:
So according to early results and exit polls, it looks like Romney is going to win, and possibly by more than anticipated

Yep, and I'm pleased as punch about that Twisted Evil

I still think that of all the Republican frontrunners, he'd be the easiest one to beat in the general elections. Plus, with Republicans in three states so far choosing three different candidates, the party will remain divided, no frontrunner will appear, and the circus can continue. Now if Florida goes for Giuliani the chaos will be complete Twisted Evil
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:39 pm
ha! thanks for the links, Nimhster.

Always fun to look at.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:49 pm
nimh wrote:
okie wrote:
So according to early results and exit polls, it looks like Romney is going to win, and possibly by more than anticipated

Yep, and I'm pleased as punch about that Twisted Evil

I still think that of all the Republican frontrunners, he'd be the easiest one to beat in the general elections. Plus, with Republicans in three states so far choosing three different candidates, the party will remain divided, no frontrunner will appear, and the circus can continue. Now if Florida goes for Giuliani the chaos will be complete Twisted Evil

Interesting, nimh, but it is my theory that the liberal press recognizes Romney as potentially being the toughest to beat. Not right now but by the time the election rolls around. He is smart and he knows the issues, and could potentially blow away any Democrat in a debate. The press has been hoping lately that he is toast, and I think they are greatly disappointed with Michigan. They wanted McCain to win.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 08:59 pm
Well, I dont work in the press, but I am what you'd call a liberal - a radical one, even - and it's McCain I'd most worry about as opponent now. Giuliani would be a dangerous opponent as well, a more dangerous opponent even, but luckily he's self-destroyed. But McCain has a very large cross-over appeal that Hillary, in particular, would have a very high mountain to climb against.

Romney on the other hand - I mean, the guy's been at the forefront of the elections campaign for a year now, and he's just not succeeding in appealing to anyone but core Republicans. Look at the favourables in the polls, look at how the respective Republicans stack up in match-up polls against Hillary or Obama - Romney consistently does worst of the whole Republican field (I mean, Ron Paul excepted). He's the Powerpoint candidate, a cardboard format Republican, and thats just not where the country is right now. Only Republican who's gonna win is the one who can credibly seem like he's different from the Bush era, from cookiecutter conservatives.

Thats just my take, of course :wink:
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 09:14 pm
I think you may be overlooking something here. Nationally, Romney is not yet well known, not as well known as McCain certainly, or Giuliani, because Giuliani has been talked about nationwide since 9/11. Romney and Huckabee are pretty much unknowns, and so their number may be subject to quite a bit of change as this process plays itself out.

In regard to the election in Michigan, last numbers I see is 40 to 30 Romney over McCain. Is it too early to start questioning what went wrong with the polls again?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 09:23 pm
okie wrote:
I think you may be overlooking something here. Nationally, Romney is not yet well known, not as well known as McCain certainly, or Giuliani, because Giuliani has been talked about nationwide since 9/11. Romney and Huckabee are pretty much unknowns, and so their number may be subject to quite a bit of change as this process plays itself out.

Sure, true.

But the thing is - Huckabee, at least, once he started getting more publicity, when he was moving up and then won in Iowa, his numbers immediately shifted too. He suddenly started doing much better against Democratic candidates in match-up polls.

Romney, not so much. He's not budging. Unlike with Huckabee or the others, when it comes to Romney, you dont see this thing that the better people know him, the more they like him. They must have gotten to know him better than they did a year ago, and yet, there's still no appeal.

okie wrote:
In regard to the election in Michigan, last numbers I see is 40 to 30 Romney over McCain. Is it too early to start questioning what went wrong with the polls again?

I'm guessing that turnout was much lower than polled for - isnt it terrible weather out there? If turnout is much lower, that means it's disproportionally the conservative faithful who turned out, and McCain will do much worse than polled for.
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