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US says it has right to kidnap British (foreign) citizens

 
 
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 12:15 pm
Quote:
From The Sunday Times
December 2, 2007

US says it has right to kidnap British citizens
David Leppard

AMERICA has told Britain that it can "kidnap" British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.

A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.

The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America.

Until now it was commonly assumed that US law permitted kidnapping only in the "extraordinary rendition" of terrorist suspects.

The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.

Legal experts confirmed this weekend that America viewed extradition as just one way of getting foreign suspects back to face trial. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.

The US government's view emerged during a hearing involving Stanley Tollman, a former director of Chelsea football club and a friend of Baroness Thatcher, and his wife Beatrice.

The Tollmans, who control the Red Carnation hotel group and are resident in London, are wanted in America for bank fraud and tax evasion. They have been fighting extradition through the British courts.

During a hearing last month Lord Justice Moses, one of the Court of Appeal judges, asked Alun Jones QC, representing the US government, about its treatment of Gavin, Tollman's nephew. Gavin Tollman was the subject of an attempted abduction during a visit to Canada in 2005.

Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offences in America. "The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared," he said.

He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: "If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse ?- it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s."

Mr Justice Ouseley, a second judge, challenged Jones to be "honest about [his] position".

Jones replied: "That is United States law."

He cited the case of Humberto Alvarez Machain, a suspect who was abducted by the US government at his medical office in Guadalajara, Mexico, in 1990. He was flown by Drug Enforcement Administration agents to Texas for criminal prosecution.

Although there was an extradition treaty in place between America and Mexico at the time ?- as there currently is between the United States and Britain ?- the Supreme Court ruled in 1992 that the Mexican had no legal remedy because of his abduction.

In 2005, Gavin Tollman, the head of Trafalgar Tours, a holiday company, had arrived in Toronto by plane when he was arrested by Canadian immigration authorities.

An American prosecutor, who had tried and failed to extradite him from Britain, persuaded Canadian officials to detain him. He wanted the Canadians to drive Tollman to the border to be handed over. Tollman was escorted in handcuffs from the aircraft in Toronto, taken to prison and held for 10 days.

A Canadian judge ordered his release, ruling that the US Justice Department had set a "sinister trap" and wrongly bypassed extradition rules. Tollman returned to Britain.

Legal sources said that under traditional American justice, rendition meant capturing wanted people abroad and bringing them to the United States. The term "extraordinary rendition" was coined in the 1990s for the kidnapping of terror suspects from one foreign country to another for interrogation.

There was concern this weekend from Patrick Mercer, the Tory MP, who said: "The very idea of kidnapping is repugnant to us and we must handle these cases with extreme caution and a thorough understanding of the implications in American law."

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the human rights group Liberty, said: "This law may date back to bounty hunting days, but they should sort it out if they claim to be a civilised nation."

The US Justice Department declined to comment.

Additional reporting: Anna Mikhailova
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 12:58 pm
The US says it has the right to try foreigners who have been rendered within its jurisdiction. The Times used quote marks around the word "kidnap", which you omitted to do.

Nevertheless, it is deeply disturbing, and (yet) another reason to fear and distrust America.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 12:59 pm
contrex wrote:
The Times used quote marks around the word "kidnap", which you omitted to do.


Not in the headline. (And within the quoted taxt.)
Quote:
From The Sunday Times
December 2, 2007

US says it has right to kidnap British citizens
David Leppard

AMERICA has told Britain that it can "kidnap" British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.

A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.

Neither in the printed nor the online edition.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 01:40 pm
Well, that's the Murdoch press for you. It is a deeply disturbing story, is it not?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 01:43 pm
It disturbs me more that I was said to have falsified a source.
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 01:51 pm
I apologise for that; I have been over on alt.english.usage, and I must have got myself into hyper-picky mood. Please forgive me!

I think if we wanted to do anything about this, it'd have to be done at EU level. The US may be able to push the UK around, but the EU as a whole has a pretty strong record on dealing with human rights issues and the US CANNOT afford to piss off the whole EU. If EU citizens were being kidnapped consistently and the EU were to declare full sanctions against the US, the US would lose out very heavily, since the EU has a massive economy and is a big trading partner with the US. By itself, the UK couldn't do very much.

[irony]
I don't have any problem with the US government doing this, as long as they accept other governments doing it too: if you name your teddy bear Muhammad, the Sudanese government should be able to come and kidnap you from your home in Iowa to administer 40 lashes, or death, or whatever they decide is the proper punishment for such a horrible transgression.
[/irony]

One can only hope the next administration of the US has some basic respect for its allies. For a government paranoid about losing sovereignty to international bodies it certainly pays very little respect to other sovereign nations.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 02:00 pm
Actually no need really to apologize; it's fine :wink:

They - the USA - really seem (sic! there's only this source, I suppose, until now) to have this idea.

Which is .... well, the secret services of the "commies" did so. And Mossad is said to have done similar.
But at least they offically didn't announce it.

Might be when you bring democracy and freedom and human rights and etc to other countries, you can do it openly.
0 Replies
 
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 02:02 pm
This is a human rights violation of the highest order, that the US has given itself sanction for legal kidnapping. We are the Ugly Americans.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 02:11 pm
I assume they then will be very supportive when other governments kidnap American citizens thought to have committed crimes?
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 06:40 am
No no, what they are saying is 'If we want to try a foreigner, and you kidnap him (for us) from his country and get away with it, then we will try him here"

What other people do outside of the US isn't the US' responsibility, so don't try and kidnap US citizens.

...at least, I'd bet a dollar that's the US line :wink:

Of course the CIA is another story altogether.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:27 am
Here is the supreme court opinion in US v. Alvarez-Machain that discusses the US position on abducting criminal suspects from foreign countries.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:35 am
Thanks, joe, for that link!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:52 am
You asked me about this on another thread walter

Walter wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:

The British Government should deliver an ultimatum to the Sudanese Govt. that unless Ms Gibbons is released unharmed within 36 hours all diplomatic and economic/trade functions with Sudan will cease. And the EU should back it.

If Gibbons is harmed in anyway, we will sequestrate any Sudanese assets in UK, arrest and imprison Sudanese diplomatic staff, and expell all Sudanese nationals.

And if it comes to it declare war.



I honestly wonder about your reaction re the recent announcement that the US has the right to kidnap any British citizen.



Oh, sorry. They are no idiotic Islamists. They can do so.


First, as you probably realise, I wasnt being absolutely serious in advocating war with Sudan, if for no other reason that they would probably win.

Second, if the American government thinks its ok to kidnap foreign citizens it reduces American law to the status of the limb choppers and stoners in God-forsaken places like Sudan.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Dec, 2007 08:53 pm
A worm's eye view

Guardian Unlimited
0 Replies
 
 

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