Illegal Suicide

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I don't disagree with that. But I do think that sometimes what's wrong in cases where someone wants to commit suicide - is not always internal. Sometimes what's wrong is external- situational- and if those circumstances are unbearable to a person, and that person sees absolutely no chance of that situation changing- suicide might seem like the only way for that person to get relief.

Yes.
In effect, the suicide has reached the conclusion
that the absence of existence is better than the degree of pain
to which he is subjected. He assumes that killing his body
will end his consciousness, because he has faith that his
thought processes are confined to his brain.

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And David - I think the correlation between suicides and murder should be looked at from the opposite stance than the one you're applying here- and by that I mean that those who have committed murder are probably more likely to commit suicide - than that those who would commit suicide are more capable of murder. Do you see what I mean?

Yes.
Upon reflection, it seems to me that one does not exclude the other.

In other words, both may well be accurate:
Firstly, that convincing a suicide not to go thru with it, might well
( has already, several times that we know of, according to the news )
delay expression of rage, that had been directed inward,
which is some time thereafter re-directed outward, as murder.

Additionally,
after a murderer has done his dirty deeds,
he may well opt to avoid the discomforts of confinement and criminal prosecution,
in favor of non-existence.
He assumes that killing his body will have the effect of ending his consciousness.
People who have unsuccessfully attempted this have denied that.
Some have described hellish conditions.

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I mean, once someone has murdered someone, as in cases where fathers wipe out their entire families, what's left- except ensuing chaos and punishment, etc? No wonder they want to kill themselves - to escape the situation they themselves have brought about.

Yes, but that does not disprove
that dissuading a friend or relative from suicide is dangerous,
in that his rage has a good chance of being re-directed outward, as murder.

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But a person who chooses to take his own life to escape simply that...his or her own particular set of circumstances..I don't believe that person is more likely to murder anyone.

Informally, it seems to me that unsuccessful suicides
are disproportionately well represented among future murderers.

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I think alot of how one views suicide depends on how that person views death.
I think it's a choice, and shouldn't be illegal, just because it's a choice most people wouldn't make.

I am not aware that government was ever given the jurisdiction to do this.
Government was created to defend us from the abuses of others,
not to defend us from our own judgment, however poor it might be.

David

Suicide itself is not illegal, for the obvious reasons to which Endymion refers. Rather, it is the attempt to commit suicide which is illegal. This is a product of religion, which holds that to commit suicide is to despair of "God's" mercy and love, and is therefore a form of apostasy.

Goofy bible-thumpers.

Setanta wrote:

Suicide itself is not illegal, for the obvious reasons to which Endymion refers. Rather, it is the attempt to commit suicide which is illegal. This is a product of religion, which holds that to commit suicide is to despair of "God's" mercy and love, and is therefore a form of apostasy.

Goofy bible-thumpers.

Setanta, no doubt the laws against attempts at suicide come from christian dogma, just as you say.

As far as this ethical atheist is concerned, all aspects of the best social contract are based on allowing the most reasonable degree of individual freedom consistent with social order, peace and stability. Unless you could advance some sort of argument (and i would say it would have to be awfully damned convoluted and obscure) that society is irreparably harmed by the private suicide of individuals--then, no, i can't see a basis for an argument that suicide offends the concept of the worth of human life. It would be the individual's right to end his or her life without consulting society on the matter.

aidan wrote:

David wrote:

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Yes, but that does not disprove
that dissuading a friend or relative from suicide is dangerous,
in that his rage has a good chance of being re-directed outward, as murder.

I understand what you're saying- except that I disagree that there is a "good chance" that his or her rage would be redirected outward if someone is successful in dissauding that person from attempting suicide.

I guess in some cases the urges are similar (rage and/or destruction) for those who commit murder and suicide, but I think most often the suicidal person is feeling overwhelmed, tired, sad, and defeated. Or maybe they're just at a point that they feel the need to take some kind of control of their own life.

It would seem to me that there'd have to be an element of sociopathology along with the suicidal ideation for a person to decide to murder someone else and then commit suicide.
And I think in criminal cases, where a person kills his girlfriend or family- or speaks of committing suicide before he does commit those crimes - the suicidal ideation is not the first and foremost issue- the sociopathological and selfish urge to control another's fate is- and then the suicide just serves to garner some sort of sympathy-"Look how upset and messed up he was- he killed himself- he wasn't totally just a selfish and violent ass."
I think it'd also be interesting to look at how many female suicides take people with them (as in commit murder beforehand) as compared to men.

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But a person who chooses to take his own life to escape simply that...his or her own particular set of circumstances..I don't believe that person is more likely to murder anyone.

Informally, it seems to me that unsuccessful suicides
are disproportionately well represented among future murderers.

Yeah, you know, everytime I read about these people who murder people and then kill themselves, I do think- "Why didn't he just kill himself..." and I don't mean to sound heartless, but for that reason moreso than any other- it should be an individual choice left up to the individual. Maybe they and they alone know they are haunted by thoughts of harming other people. Maybe they are actually trying to avoid doing something they'll regret.
When my husband used to tell me about working (in the ER) to save the lives of people who have tried over and over again to commit suicide- I used to just ask him, "Why didn't you just let him/her go? It's what that person wanted."
Of course he couldn't do that- but it seems counterproductive and arrogant to mandate that someone stay alive that doesn't want to be alive.

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I think alot of how one views suicide depends on how that person views death.
I think it's a choice, and shouldn't be illegal, just because it's a choice most people wouldn't make.

I am not aware that government was ever given the jurisdiction to do this.
Government was created to defend us from the abuses of others,
not to defend us from our own judgment, however poor it might be.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes, given the circumstances of the people I either know or read about who have committed suicide, I don't always think it necessarily shows bad judgment. Sometimes I can understand why they made the choice they did.


Here's what I found in terms of what Judaism teaches about suicide:
http://www.religionfacts.com/euthanasia/judaism.htm

It was interesting to me that it wasn't specifically really addressed in the Jewish bible and Talmud- but then in medieval times- other more stringent strictures and harsher language began to be put in place.

If there is a god- I think s/he understands suffering.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

aidan wrote:

David wrote:

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Yes, but that does not disprove
that dissuading a friend or relative from suicide is dangerous,
in that his rage has a good chance of being re-directed outward, as murder.

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I understand what you're saying- except that I disagree that there is a "good chance"
that his or her rage would be redirected outward
if someone is successful in dissauding that person from attempting suicide.

To calculate the chances,
we 'd need an accurate statistical analysis; not an ez task,
in terms of acquiring the data.

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I guess in some cases the urges are similar (rage and/or destruction)
for those who commit murder and suicide, but I think most often the suicidal person is feeling overwhelmed,
tired, sad, and defeated.
Or maybe they're just at a point that they feel the need to take
some kind of control of their own life.

It would seem to me that there'd have to be an element of sociopathology
along with the suicidal ideation for a person to decide to murder someone else and then commit suicide.

Well, logically, if he intends to commit suicide ANYWAY,
then he is immune from all human retribution for his deeds,
so he is free to express his malice and execute vengeance
upon those who have roused his anger; i.e., its a freebe, with impunity.

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And I think in criminal cases, where a person kills his girlfriend or family-
or speaks of committing suicide before he does commit those crimes -
the suicidal ideation is not the first and foremost issue- the sociopathological
and selfish urge to control another's fate is-
and then the suicide just serves to garner some sort of sympathy-

"Look how upset and messed up he was- he killed himself-
he wasn't totally just a selfish and violent ass."

This assumes, without proving,
that one is motivated to avoid being deemed to be selfish.
Since my earliest memories, I always deemed myself to be selfish.
My mother recommended against that.
I did not accept her filosofy, on that point.
I was proudly selfish and called everyone else a fool who was NOT so.
That is the natural way for everyone to be.

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I think it'd also be interesting to look at how many female suicides
take people with them (as in commit murder beforehand) as compared to men.

Yeah.
Sometimes thay have done it as euthanasia ( killing their kids ),
rather than malicious murder.
Chix do not lash out maliciously, to take everyone out.

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But a person who chooses to take his own life to escape simply that...
his or her own particular set of circumstances..
I don't believe that person is more likely to murder anyone.

Agreed.

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Informally, it seems to me that unsuccessful suicides
are disproportionately well represented among future murderers.

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Yeah, you know, everytime I read about these people who murder people and then kill themselves,
I do think- "Why didn't he just kill himself..."

He might have been vengeful.

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and I don't mean to sound heartless, but for that reason moreso than any other-
it should be an individual choice left up to the individual.

If he is REALLY earnest about it,
he will succeed,
and no one will be able to interfere.

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When my husband used to tell me about working (in the ER)
to save the lives of people who have tried over and over again to commit suicide-
I used to just ask him, "Why didn't you just let him/her go? It's what that person wanted."
Of course he couldn't do that-

Danger from ethicists
who might interfere with his license to practice medicine,
or of malpractice litigation.

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but it seems counterproductive and arrogant
to mandate that someone stay alive that doesn't want to be alive.

Yes.

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Here's what I found in terms of what Judaism teaches about suicide:
http://www.religionfacts.com/euthanasia/judaism.htm

Hitler did the same thing as King Saul;
for good reason. The communists were about to capture him
and deliver him to Stalin; that wud not bring good luck.

Thanx for the research, Rebecca.
David

Chix do not lash out maliciously, to take everyone out.

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And I think in criminal cases, where a person kills his girlfriend or family-
or speaks of committing suicide before he does commit those crimes -
the suicidal ideation is not the first and foremost issue- the sociopathological
and selfish urge to control another's fate is-
and then the suicide just serves to garner some sort of sympathy-

"Look how upset and messed up he was- he killed himself-
he wasn't totally just a selfish and violent ass."

This assumes, without proving,
that one is motivated to avoid being deemed to be selfish.
Since my earliest memories, I always deemed myself to be selfish.
My mother recommended against that.
I did not accept her filosofy, on that point.
I was proudly selfish and called everyone else a fool who was NOT so.
That is the natural way for everyone to be.

Quote:

I think it'd also be interesting to look at how many female suicides
take people with them (as in commit murder beforehand) as compared to men.

Yeah.
Sometimes thay have done it as euthanasia ( killing their kids ),
rather than malicious murder.

Quote:

Here's what I found in terms of what Judaism teaches about suicide:
http://www.religionfacts.com/euthanasia/judaism.htm

Hitler did the same thing as King Saul;
for good reason. The communists were about to capture him
and deliver him to Stalin; that wud not bring good luck.

Thanx for the research, Rebecca.
David

Hitler did the same thing as King Saul;
for good reason. The communists were about to capture him
and deliver him to Stalin; that wud not bring good luck.

I thought what Bella said was really interesting: "Humans are wired for survival, and if someone doesn't want to survive- something's wrong...sometimes we can fix it and sometimes we can't."

I don't disagree with that. But I do think that sometimes what's wrong in cases where someone wants to commit suicide - is not always internal. Sometimes what's wrong is external- situational- and if those circumstances are unbearable to a person, and that person sees absolutely no chance of that situation changing- suicide might seem like the only way for that person to get relief.

I disagree that everyone who commits suicide is emotionally overwrought or mentally ill or even necessarily depressed. I think most people are conditioned to look at people who choose suicide as such, because otherwise, what would it say about our society? If someone believes s/he's better off dead- it must be pretty damn bad.

And David - I think the correlation between suicides and murder should be looked at from the opposite stance than the one you're applying here- and by that I mean that those who have committed murder are probably more likely to commit suicide - than that those who would commit suicide are more capable of murder. Do you see what I mean?

I mean, once someone has murdered someone, as in cases where fathers wipe out their entire families, what's left- except ensuing chaos and punishment, etc? No wonder they want to kill themselves - to escape the situation they themselves have brought about.

But a person who chooses to take his own life to escape simply that...his or her own particular set of circumstances..I don't believe that person is more likely to murder anyone.

I think alot of how one views suicide depends on how that person views death.
I think it's a choice, and shouldn't be illegal, just because it's a choice most people wouldn't make.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Hitler did the same thing as King Saul;
for good reason. The communists were about to capture him
and deliver him to Stalin; that wud not bring good luck.

Let us hope this was a feeble attempt at humor (? ! ? ! ?),
and that you don't seriously expect anyone to believe horseshit such as that.

Bella Dea wrote:

lex884 wrote:

Yeah, anyway do u think people can commit suicide with informed decision?

Yes and no.

Someone who is terminal may make an informed decision regarding suicide. But most people who do it, do it in a moment of utter dispair. One where they are so consumed by their emotions they can't think straight.

I would wager to bet that most suicides have mental problems that, had they been able to get help somehow, would have not killed themselves. Depression is a funny thing. But most suicides give off some sort of clue that they are serious about ending their life. Sometimes, we catch it because they are doing everything in their power to make us notice. Sometimes we don't catch it. And sometimes, there just isn't anything we can do even if we do catch it because a person in that state doesn't think rationally and often will make every attempt to complete the suicide regardless. Instead of focusing on why they shouldn't die, they spend all their time focusing on why they should die.

Humans, like any other animal, are wired for survival. If you don't want to survive, something is wrong. Sometimes we can fix it. Sometimes we can't.

If humans are wired for survival, then people with terminal illness are wired for survival too, and yet they can make informed decision for suicide. I don't think anything wrong with them that we need to fix don't you aggree? (except the illness thingy)

Hmm..... why suicide is wrong anyway? why we need to be pro life?
Is it because of all the goodness, all the nice things that we should be able to experience if we choose life over death? but life comes with good and bad, a lot of times bad things happen too. Besides, so I miss out a good stuff, big deal, I won't be consciouss to regret the decision anyway. so what's the real problem of suicide?

I don't think helping loved ones avoid sadness is a good reason to suffer through misery for decades, though.

At some point, the person who feels suicide is the best solution should be considered above those who surround them in life.

Our lives belong to us, ultimately.

Loved ones should understand.