Illegal Suicide

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Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, looking forward to reading all the good comments from the members.

In Singapore, attempted suicide is an offence punishable by jail (see Death in Singapore).
The reason behind is probably due to the effects caused by the attempt to the surrounding environment i.e. neighbours, etc. One could argue that the law is supportive to a better social orders, however, trying to fit into the shoes of the persone attempting suicide, is it really fair for a country to forbid him/her take his/her own life?? (i'll drop the him/her here and just use him, for general meaning).

Let's imagine for a while, a hypothetical situation about a person named John. Let's enter his life and try to view the world around as John.
John views his life as a crappy life. He is a school dropout, has an overweight problem, totally broke, hasn't paid several months of his rent, has literaly no friends and unemployed. It's not like he didn't try to fix his problems, he tried several times and failed miserably. He therefore believed that he is also emotionally crippled, he has very low amount of willpower and easily give up.
Realizing there is no bright future waiting for him, and every day's torture on being him, make him wants to take his own life.

Is it not logical for John to come to the decision of taking his own life? Excluding religious arguments, life purpose is nothing more than seeking pleasure, a chemical manipulation at the brain. Think about it, why do we want money? is it not because money can bring pleasure to our brain, thru giving us nice house, car, etc. why do we want good relationship and family, is it not because it feels good to enjoy a good relationship and hav a good family. All revolves only on satisfying the brain.
In John's case however, the brain experiences pain in daily basis with little to no hope of any turning point soon. Is it not then logical for John to take his own life? Prohibiting him so by enforcing the law is like forcing him to live a miserable life, experiencing pain every day, isn't it the same with torture? Funny don't you think, making a law to torture someone for the rest of his life. If it is the surrounding society that is need to be preserved, then why don't we make a certain organization to take care of people who wants suicide? so anyone who wants suicide can come discreetly and kill himself on an arranged place at arranged time, no body else need to know about it. So the surrounding people won't even know that John is dead. Sounds absurd I know, but it is a lot better solution than enforcing a law that torture John for the rest of his life.

What do you think? Very Happy

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If you had government supplied suicide booths then many mentally ill people would use them who might have been saved by treatment.

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I'd worry about regretting it in the mourning.

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People who try to kill themselves do not do so after logic reasoning.
And those who are really determined to kill themselves will do so regardless of what any law says. Are they going to put his corpse in jail?

I've had more experience with suicide and suicide attempts than I would like to have. Friends and loved ones have killed themselves and tried to kill themselves. One fairly recently, only a matter of weeks. It takes only a moment of loss of clarity, one second of bottomless despair in which a fatal action is taken. Many times these people have never actually thought about killing themselves, and if they survive the attempt, they are likely to be as shocked as anyone else over what they have done.

But a suicide clinic. I think it's a interesting idea. You arrive and get a room. Then you get a date for when you are going to do it, sessions of preparational "therapy". You get to chose how, and you get to see where and how they will dispose of your remains. You get to do it in front of your loved ones if you like, or in private. It would be an empty place, this clinic, because the people who take their lives rarely know that they are contemplating it. It never happens based on an informed desicion. But should one or two decide to check into this place, I am pretty sure they would be leaving alive, having realized that killing oneself is a bad idea.

The John you use in your example shouldn't take his own life. Maybe he should rob a bank or elope to Africa, buy a prostitute or steal chocolate at the supermarket. He should get his blood pumping, not spill it.

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Yes, very few people think logically when committing suicide...

Here's some reasons why... http://www.cracked.com/article_15658_ten-minute-suicide-guide.html

Plus, suicide ends up devastating a lot more people than just the person who commits it. So there are good reasons for society to discourage it.

But, I do think medical euthanasia is okay. If you're going to die anyway, then you should have the right to decide when and how you die.

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Re: Illegal Suicide

lex884 wrote:

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, looking forward to reading all the good comments from the members.

In Singapore, attempted suicide is an offence punishable by jail

Regardless of whether the attempt is successful ?

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@Cyracuz

My condolances for your friends and loved ones that actually did commited suicide.

I aggree with you that people usually commit suicide without an informed decision, it is a moment of despair that actually triggered them.
However, if such clinic actually exist, I don't think it will be empty. People who will go to the clinic might not be those who decide on suicide based on subjective one moment experience, it could be people who are fully informed of the consequences and effects. The people could range from a deep thinker, thinking there is nothing more in life that is meaningful, to a stock trader, who has just messed up big time causing the company millions.

With such clinic exist, people who really want to commit suicide can avoid making a scene like jumping from a high building, or any other public melodramatic scene (unless of course the very reason of suicide is to seek public attention in unhealty way, which is a special minor case IMO). This way public order will still be preserved without crossing any of people's rights to take his own life.
Like you also said, people who are determined to kill himself would care no less with the law and do it anyway. So creating such a law is counter-productive (which sort of proven seeing the number of suicide cases that still increases after the law is created) Creating such clinic is a much better way. Well.... maybe they also provide a quick & fast package, come to the place, get a room, and then kill ur self, no question asked Razz

Hmmm....Yeah maybe I should rob a bank or buy a prostitue... I mean John... maybe John should.... Razz

@OmsigDAVID

I think the law is for those who survives Smile

hence the word attempted, it doesn't make sense if the attempt is succesful. But I'm not sure about the exact word of the law, to be honest.

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Quote:

@OmsigDAVID

I think the law is for those who survives hence the word attempted,
it doesn't make sense if the attempt is succesful. But I'm not sure about the exact word of the law, to be honest.

Don 't u think it wud be EASIER
to enforce the law against those suicides who were successful ?

Those who failed, can still flee the police ( if their wounds are not too severe )
in terror of the Singaporean jails,
whereas those who were completely dead have less energy to escape from the scene.

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to say nothing of the fact
that after a successful suicide is in jail,
he does not eat as much as an unsuccessful attempted suicide

( and is less likely to escape, or to bribe the police )

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hahahahaha...... Very Happy

But how about the smell? He will deteriorate very fast and the smell will disturb other prisoners.
Maybe we should alter the punishment for failed attempt to be shot dead, this way while they are flee-ing when their wounds are not too severe we can just shoot him dead Very Happy

problem solved Razz

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lex884 wrote:

hahahahaha......

Quote:
But how about the smell? He will deteriorate very fast and the smell will disturb other prisoners.

Enuf to cause them to commit suicide ?

Quote:

Maybe we should alter the punishment for failed attempt to be shot dead,
this way while they are flee-ing when their wounds are not too severe we
can just shoot him dead problem solved

Yeah, if someone ELSE kills him,
then its not suicide, so is that legal in Singapore ?

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Wouldn't it be much better if suicide attempts in singapore were punishable by death?

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I wonder if Singapore 'd like to enlist the services of Dr. Kevorkian
to administer the lethal needle ?

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Yeah, anyway do u think people can commit suicide with informed decision?

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Yes

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oh

i thought this must be another thread about the invasion of Iraq

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lex884 wrote:

Yeah, anyway do u think people can commit suicide with informed decision?

Yes and no.

Someone who is terminal may make an informed decision regarding suicide. But most people who do it, do it in a moment of utter dispair. One where they are so consumed by their emotions they can't think straight.

I would wager to bet that most suicides have mental problems that, had they been able to get help somehow, would have not killed themselves. Depression is a funny thing. But most suicides give off some sort of clue that they are serious about ending their life. Sometimes, we catch it because they are doing everything in their power to make us notice. Sometimes we don't catch it. And sometimes, there just isn't anything we can do even if we do catch it because a person in that state doesn't think rationally and often will make every attempt to complete the suicide regardless. Instead of focusing on why they shouldn't die, they spend all their time focusing on why they should die.

Humans, like any other animal, are wired for survival. If you don't want to survive, something is wrong. Sometimes we can fix it. Sometimes we can't.

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Bella Dea wrote:

lex884 wrote:
Yeah, anyway do u think people can commit suicide with informed decision?

Yes and no.

Someone who is terminal may make an informed decision regarding suicide. But most people who do it, do it in a moment of utter dispair. One where they are so consumed by their emotions they can't think straight.

I would wager to bet that most suicides have mental problems that, had they been able to get help somehow, would have not killed themselves. Depression is a funny thing. But most suicides give off some sort of clue that they are serious about ending their life. Sometimes, we catch it because they are doing everything in their power to make us notice. Sometimes we don't catch it. And sometimes, there just isn't anything we can do even if we do catch it because a person in that state doesn't think rationally and often will make every attempt to complete the suicide regardless. Instead of focusing on why they shouldn't die, they spend all their time focusing on why they should die.

Humans, like any other animal, are wired for survival. If you don't want to survive, something is wrong. Sometimes we can fix it. Sometimes we can't.

Folks with suicidal ideation ( and some with recent suicide attempts ) r
disproportionately well represented among mutiple murderers.
Convincing a potential suicide not to go thru with it, can have bad results.

Some psychologists have described it as their having great rage,
at first directed inward, and later expressed outward upon other folks.

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Bella Dea wrote:

lex884 wrote:
Yeah, anyway do u think people can commit suicide with informed decision?

Yes and no.

Someone who is terminal may make an informed decision regarding suicide. But most people who do it, do it in a moment of utter dispair. One where they are so consumed by their emotions they can't think straight.

I would wager to bet that most suicides have mental problems that, had they been able to get help somehow, would have not killed themselves. Depression is a funny thing. But most suicides give off some sort of clue that they are serious about ending their life. Sometimes, we catch it because they are doing everything in their power to make us notice. Sometimes we don't catch it. And sometimes, there just isn't anything we can do even if we do catch it because a person in that state doesn't think rationally and often will make every attempt to complete the suicide regardless. Instead of focusing on why they shouldn't die, they spend all their time focusing on why they should die.

Humans, like any other animal, are wired for survival. If you don't want to survive, something is wrong. Sometimes we can fix it. Sometimes we can't.

If humans are wired for survival, then people with terminal illness are wired for survival too, and yet they can make informed decision for suicide. I don't think anything wrong with them that we need to fix don't you aggree? (except the illness thingy)

Hmm..... why suicide is wrong anyway? why we need to be pro life?
Is it because of all the goodness, all the nice things that we should be able to experience if we choose life over death? but life comes with good and bad, a lot of times bad things happen too. Besides, so I miss out a good stuff, big deal, I won't be consciouss to regret the decision anyway. so what's the real problem of suicide?

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I thought what Bella said was really interesting: "Humans are wired for survival, and if someone doesn't want to survive- something's wrong...sometimes we can fix it and sometimes we can't."

I don't disagree with that. But I do think that sometimes what's wrong in cases where someone wants to commit suicide - is not always internal. Sometimes what's wrong is external- situational- and if those circumstances are unbearable to a person, and that person sees absolutely no chance of that situation changing- suicide might seem like the only way for that person to get relief.

I disagree that everyone who commits suicide is emotionally overwrought or mentally ill or even necessarily depressed. I think most people are conditioned to look at people who choose suicide as such, because otherwise, what would it say about our society? If someone believes s/he's better off dead- it must be pretty damn bad.

And David - I think the correlation between suicides and murder should be looked at from the opposite stance than the one you're applying here- and by that I mean that those who have committed murder are probably more likely to commit suicide - than that those who would commit suicide are more capable of murder. Do you see what I mean?

I mean, once someone has murdered someone, as in cases where fathers wipe out their entire families, what's left- except ensuing chaos and punishment, etc? No wonder they want to kill themselves - to escape the situation they themselves have brought about.

But a person who chooses to take his own life to escape simply that...his or her own particular set of circumstances..I don't believe that person is more likely to murder anyone.

I think alot of how one views suicide depends on how that person views death.
I think it's a choice, and shouldn't be illegal, just because it's a choice most people wouldn't make.

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Illegal Suicide

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