Oz election thread #3 - Rudd's Labour

@dlowan,

I think they were simply responding to "the call", Deb. Products of their time. Naive young men looking for adventure, supporting the "mother country" & all that ... & there 'd never been a war quite as devastating as this one. Little did they know what they were actually in for! It's not at all surprising to me that many refused to talk about their experiences (apart from grieving & honouring the loss of mates) for years & years after WW1. The now popular "celebrations" of WW1 never came from the veterans.

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http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_aus_05.jpg

http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/australia.htm

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@msolga,

Nearly.

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@spendius,

The army, spendius? Surprised

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@msolga,

Quote:

The army, spendius?

The twentieth century? <<chortle>>

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@hingehead,

.... or perhaps Afghanistan, in the 21st century?

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Just knew this was coming. Sigh.:

Rudd confirms Afghanistan troop boost
By Online parliamentary correspondent Emma Rodgers/ABC News
Posted 5 hours 53 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 8 minutes ago

Around 450 extra Australian troops will be sent to Afghanistan to train local troops and help with upcoming elections.

Announcing the boost today, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said troops would remain in the country until local forces and authorities were able to maintain peace and stability.

Quote:

Mr Rudd says around 100 soldiers will form two teams to join the the Mentoring and Reconstruction Task Force (MRTF) in Uruzgan province.

Around 70 will join the Special Operations Task Group (SOTG), the special forces units on the front line in the fight against the Taliban.

Another 120 troops will be sent on an eight-month deployment to help with security for the Afghan elections in August.

A team of around 40 engineers will be sent to work on upgrades for the Tarin Kowt airfield and up to 70 staff will also be embedded in other US or Coalition headquarters.

Ten Australian Federal Police (AFP) will help train local police forces.

Those troops sent to join the MRTF will help train Afghanistan National Army soldiers in a brigade of around 3,300 personnel.

Mr Rudd says until the brigade is properly trained, Australian troops will not be able to withdraw.

He also says it is clear the current strategy in the war-torn country is not working and the world is at "grave risk" of allowing the return of intensified terrorist activity.

"We cannot ignore this cold hard strategic fact - less security in Afghanistan means less security for Australians," he said....<cont>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/29/2555859.htm

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@msolga,

Hi Olgs - how anti-Afghanistan involvement are you? I have mixed feelings - I feel if we (the west) pulled out things would go up **** creek there, again. But I don't think we can impose social structure just by being there either. I'm hoping that the sacrifices of the citizens and the occupying forces can create a bed fertile enough for a stable and relatively open society - but I can't say I'm optimistic.

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@hingehead,

Yep.

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@hingehead,

Quote:

Hi Olgs - how anti-Afghanistan involvement are you? I have mixed feelings - I feel if we (the west) pulled out things would go up **** creek there, again. But I don't think we can impose social structure just by being there either. I'm hoping that the sacrifices of the citizens and the occupying forces can create a bed fertile enough for a stable and relatively open society - but I can't say I'm optimistic.

Hi hinge

Let's just say I have "grave concerns" about increased Australian involvement in Afghanistan. As much as I would love to believe that increased (Oz & other) troop numbers might bring greater stability & security to the lives of the Aghani people I'm extremely pessimistic about the prospect. How do you transform a tribal society plagued with corruption into something vaguely resembling a democracy? Not by military "surges", I'd guess. (I think the Aghanis have had more than enough of others fighting war on their land, whatever the given reason of each invader.) And how can (relative) stability be created in Afghanistan when "the west" has so little control over Pakistan? (& the military's close connection with the Taliban. Pakistan is the main sanctuary of Al-Qaida.) You can't change Afghanistan without changing Pakistan - the two are connected. How many deaths of Australian troops will the Oz community tolerate in the hope that things might improve in Afghanistan, somewhere down the track? (This is going to become a very unpopular war as the death toll mounts. And it will.)

These are my inital reactions to your question, hinge, off the top of my head after a bugger of a day at work on Friday. As much as I would like to believe that outside military intervention might create "fertile ground" for a more stable, more democratic Afghanistan, sadly, I am extremely sceptical. Especially after the Iraq invasion by "the west".

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@msolga,

Statistics from the BBC - Friday 27th March, 2009. (Before the additional numbers anounced by our prime minister this week.)
I wonder about what seems to be a disproportionate number of Australian troops, per head of population, in Afghanistan, (given that we are not a NATO member - though, of course, a US ally) compared to other NATO countries.:

COUNTRIES WITH TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN

Country Total troops
Albania 140
Australia 1,090
Austria 1
Azerbaijan 90
Belgium 405
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2
Bulgaria 470
Canada 2,830
Croatia 530
Czech Republic 580
Denmark 700
Estonia 140
Finland 110
France 2,780
Georgia 1
Germany 3,640
Greece 140
Hungary 370
Iceland 8
Ireland 7
Italy 2,350
Jordan 4
Latvia 160
Lithuania 200
Luxemburg 9
Netherlands 1,770
New Zealand 150
Norway 490
Poland 1,590
Portugal 30
Romania 900
Singapore 20
Slovakia 120
Slovenia 70
Spain 780
Sweden 265
Macedonia 170
Turkey 690
Ukraine 10
United Arab Emirates 25
United Kingdom 8,300
United States 29,820
Total 61,957
Source: ISAF

*Figures are based on approximate contributions and may not reflect the exact numbers on the ground at any one time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7968208.stm

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I have other concerns about Australian involvement, too, but I'll leave it here for now. I'd be interested to read other Oz posters' views on our involvement in Afghanistan (Deb? Wilso?..etc) & would be happy to engage in further discussion on the subject.

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Today's Leunig:

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2009/05/08/cartoon080409_gallery__564x400.jpg

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Well that's over. Let's hope his successor steers clear of politics.:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2009/05/08/090509_cartoon_moir_gallery__600x372,0.jpg

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http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6614990,00.jpg

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Interesting, listening to the post-budget discussions by the "experts" on my local ABC .... time & again there's speculation about an early election & & the likely return of Captain Smirk to lead the Liberals. Are these the sort of things you're hearing in the other states?

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@msolga,

Nah - smirky got one tiny grab post-budget. I think its because of your proximity to the Vic libs.

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@hingehead,

Maybe ... dunno

So who will be replacing Malcolm, then?

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@msolga,

Hockey! bpppfttt!

That would be four Sydney libs in a row - no wonder the vic branch keeps talking up Tim's less equal brother.

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@hingehead,

Nah, not Hockey yet. He has quite a bit of homework to do. But in a few years time? Perhaps. A big perhaps if they don't import some (urgently needed) new blood from outside.
You will think I'm crazy, hinge, but .... I see Captain Smirk as waiting for the big moment when the Liberal faithful & the Lib powers that be realize their TERRIBLE error in not dumping Howard & taking him on as leader, years ago. I honestly believe he is waiting for the moment when all will grovel & beg him to take on the position.: "We were so terribly about you, wrong, Peter! Please forgive us! Save us from this socialist (haha!) scourge by becoming our leader! Your rightful place!" I honestly think this is what he's waiting for. Let's face it, he couldn't really take on the job in any other way, given his recent history in the party ... he wants to be genuinely conscripted. And he will be the one to save the party! (Oh he'd love that!) And, you know what? I think the Libs will actually become desperate enough to eventually do it!
Now you may think that these are the misguided ravings of a Melbourne girl, but I predict this will actually happen. In fact I will have a wee bet with you about it. What do you say?

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Oz election thread #3 - Rudd's Labour

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