The american way.

well politics is about profits, being about maintaining power using whatever government is in control, and governments only use being to issue stable currency.

philosophy is about knowledge and absolute truth right? (logic etc..)

two very different things, also i put this in "general" as a rant and someoone moved it. i can see its philisophical use but there are no facts for it only morols and integrity arguments so i just wanted to know if anyone out there had the same thoughts as me.

On a serious note, could we do something with this forum using real data , like our own a2k thinktank for global problems? it would be sorta nice if a moderator dropped a weekly question onto this forum for everyone to discuss, realistically.
i think this forum has a nice mix to it, smart people, loud people, comeplete idiots.

Well, even the idiots will show us what NOT to do.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

oh i dunno, there ought to be more philosophy in politics but there isn't.

since philosophy has no place in a political forum, and this thread has some philosophy, this might be the ideal place. for partisan pseudopolitical garbage like we have in the states, the politics forum is ideal- i thought this thread transcended that a bit, doesn't that qualify as philosophy here? after all, it's purely hypothetical

OK, perhaps this is something approaching a philosophical question/argument

ogionik wrote:

why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?

But this is clearly politics

ogionik wrote:

Then i saw the story on the fake preacher who was also a lead guy in the red cross during katrina on maury? or someshit. he bullshitted his resume.
Everyone was booing, and i was thinking "thats the american way, why are people complaining?"

The system is setup to fail you, if you are honest. this is the biggest thing ive learned growing up in america, to be succesful you must lie cheat and steal, or have friends and family that can help you and back you up. otherwise you will have to get lucky and create microsoft or google.

I mean seriously, we murdered native americans to steal their land, how can we say we have any morals at all if we stole this country in the first place? Now we are murdering iraqis for their oil.

Actually, I would describe it as idiocy, but given the choice between philosophy and politics, it's clear it is the latter.

Let's try not to foul other sub-forums in A2K with POLITICS.

No one would be very understanding of someone who posted a recipe for Apple Brown Betty in the Phliosophy sub-forum, so let's not tolerate political posts either.

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Finn dAbuzz wrote:

tinygiraffe wrote:
oh i dunno, there ought to be more philosophy in politics but there isn't.

since philosophy has no place in a political forum, and this thread has some philosophy, this might be the ideal place. for partisan pseudopolitical garbage like we have in the states, the politics forum is ideal- i thought this thread transcended that a bit, doesn't that qualify as philosophy here? after all, it's purely hypothetical

OK, perhaps this is something approaching a philosophical question/argument

ogionik wrote:
why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?

SORRY I GO OFF ON TANGENTS ALOT, SUGAR AND TRANS-FAT SATURATED DIET INDUCED ADD OR SOMETHING

But this is clearly politics

ogionik wrote:
Then i saw the story on the fake preacher who was also a lead guy in the red cross during katrina on maury? or someshit. he bullshitted his resume.
Everyone was booing, and i was thinking "thats the american way, why are people complaining?"

The system is setup to fail you, if you are honest. this is the biggest thing ive learned growing up in america, to be succesful you must lie cheat and steal, or have friends and family that can help you and back you up. otherwise you will have to get lucky and create microsoft or google.

I mean seriously, we murdered native americans to steal their land, how can we say we have any morals at all if we stole this country in the first place? Now we are murdering iraqis for their oil.

Actually, I would describe it as idiocy, but given the choice between philosophy and politics, it's clear it is the latter.

Let's try not to foul other sub-forums in A2K with POLITICS.

No one would be very understanding of someone who posted a recipe for Apple Brown Betty in the Phliosophy sub-forum, so let's not tolerate political posts either.

why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?

yeah that was the aim of the post, that one question. sorry i dont very often get to talk or discuss things with people who have, umm intelligence or informed opinions. i get a little overzealous im sure most of you have noticed ;D AND YEAH THE TANGENTS are a problem. im working on it...

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and i know the answer to every question ive ever asked in regards to why humans do stupid things in general. well..

the answer is that humans are stupid, in general Razz

and that really is the answer to the question isnt it? humans are just stupid overall, or actually not stupid, ignorant. whether through misinformation/propoganda or lack of resources to attain education or knowledge.

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It's called self-reliance - the ability to fail or succeed for oneself. You want a safety net for yourself and a pat on the back for helping a stranger? What does it accomplish? All you're doing is replacing the reality of the situation with something less scary - and by association rendering its outcome intrinsically less meaningful.

I want to excel as ever I can without the hindrance of others interests insofar as mine are not by nature or implication concerned and at the end of the day either have done something of universal merit or died trying. That little darlin' is how society advances. If you want mediocrity or pre-forgiveness for that which you may otherwise regret I have no sympathy.

You entitle yourself to intelligence and willingness to work, but call Bill Gates and Larry Page lucky? Ever think to thank your stars for access to their products? I'm glad you're not in charge of the redistribution of wealth.

The only thing special about what we did to the Indians is that we did it instead of somebody else - they were never going to become a world power - but people with a lot less stable ideas than us were going to.

I say we can because we do and we do because we can.

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Re: The american way.

OGIONIK wrote:

why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit? is this the mindset i will have to "aquire" to become succesful in a capitalist society? At first i thought naw no way, i can keep my integrity and morals and still be successful. i can be ethical and still become wealthy, right?

Before money, there was barter. Even then I think people wanted the "better end of the deal." So, if a person wound up with an old goat, when he gave someone (for the old goat) five young chickens, someone got the better end of the deal. I think that desire is hardwired into our brains, as part of our survival instincts. So, today it has been abstracted to money.

And those who want to live comfortably, without the "rat race" for money often try to find a less competitive environment. They do exist; often it requires more education, or government jobs.

But, not everyone wants to be wealthy. If one desires wealth, then that desire, I believe, just shows how effective our socialization process is, in that many of us want wealth, a priori, without question.

You should also look at the views of Max Weber. He wrote, Protestantism, and the Rise of Capitalism. There might be a religious impetus to the drive for profit (God's divine sign that one will have Salvation).

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Quote:

why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit? is this the mindset i will have to "aquire" to become succesful in a capitalist society? At first i thought naw no way, i can keep my integrity and morals and still be successful. i can be ethical and still become wealthy, right?

wrong. my first job i had to steal shoes so i could start my first day. right off the bat i was forced to break the law in order to be a part of society.
my second i realised being honest at the interview was suicide, so i lied my ass off. my third i just started using friends as "managers" , and this is when i thought to myself "why cant my willingness to work and my intelligence be enough? why am i being forced to lie or make stuff up in order to get a job with pay that still isn't even that great?"

Then i saw the story on the fake preacher who was also a lead guy in the red cross during katrina on maury? or someshit. he bullshitted his resume.
Everyone was booing, and i was thinking "thats the american way, why are people complaining?"

The system is setup to fail you, if you are honest. this is the biggest thing ive learned growing up in america, to be succesful you must lie cheat and steal, or have friends and family that can help you and back you up. otherwise you will have to get lucky and create microsoft or google.

I mean seriously, we murdered native americans to steal their land, how can we say we have any morals at all if we stole this country in the first place? Now we are murdering iraqis for their oil.

So when the world finally gets fed up and nukes us, who are we going to blame but ourselves? Oh but when that happens we will realise that getting bombed and invaded isnt a pleasant experience.
violence leads to more violence, yet we persist in engaging in a pointless war. That means we want more violence to happen. period.

Ask yourself, why do americans want more violence? oh yeah, its profitable!

good day.

OGIONIK FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

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Naj stated that after exploiting poorer nations we return to them a percentage of our loot as a 'sop' to our conscience. I want to suggest that what we give to the elites of those countries are bribes and money to enable them put down rebellions by their exploited classes.

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boomerang wrote:

So what do you propose as an alternative to "the American way"?

You complain that nobody does anything to make it better.

You complain about fluoride in the water.

You do realize, don't you, that fluordated water is one of the most successful, least expensive public health campaigns ever initiated by the US government.

The people who started Microsoft and Google weren't "lucky". They worked their asses off. They took huge risks. And, it should be noted, that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation does amazing work.

I'll bet that most people never had to lie, cheat and steal to get a job or keep a job. I never did.

Yeah,I definately agree with you there on the job thing......I think that just intitiates From not Trying to Do a job thats in over your head....If i dont know how to be a doctor im certainly Not going to go to my local hospital and Do a false Resume....Or Even something like if i dont know how to Mow a Lawn im Not gonna get a job and fake a resume to get a Lawn mower position...You start at the bottom and work honestly,Hard and work your way up.....thats what ive always done.

you dont HAVE to Lie Or Cheat to get a job.

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this is my kind of thread: good discussion & no personal attacks.

mrhunt wrote:

You start at the bottom and work honestly,Hard and work your way up.....thats what ive always done.

in some circles, that's called the "Horatio Alger" myth. what if you can't start at the bottom, because most of the bottom jobs are in places like India or China with vast populations willing to work for far less that what would be a livable wage in the US?

meanwhile, here's Warren Buffett, pal of Bill Gates & in Gates' income bracket, in a recent Fortune Magazine interview:

Quote:

[editor] Even so, you and Susie set up the Buffett Foundation way back in the 1960s, which means you obviously expected to be giving away money sometime. What was your thinking back then?

[Buffett] Well, when we got married in 1952, I told Susie I was going to be rich. That wasn't going to be because of any special virtues of mine or even because of hard work, but simply because I was born with the right skills in the right place at the right time.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/25/magazines/fortune/charity2.fortune/index.htm

i think Gates has also stated that he was in the right place at the right time, although i haven't been able to find the quote. Buffett at any rate shows refreshing honesty. so success requires opportunity as well as hard work, but not everyone gets the same opportunity, and thus there's inequality. the question is, is the inequality of opportunity increasing, decreasing, or remaining the same? it's my impression that wealth & income disparity have been steadily increasing for a long time. but i haven't the time to find figures to back up my impression, and i can't rule out the possibility that Americans are working less harder overall, but i also seem to remember that productivity was steadily increasing at the same time the gap between poor & wealthy increased.

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bm

Interesting discussion!

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Once a society is formed in order to survive it must act as if it was a simple organism in relation to other competing societies.

The American Way is simply a society that, like all others, is mostly concerned with its own survival and has chosen controlled human initiative as its preferred method.

Whether the society is a church, a nation, or a business it must survive and reproduce. In that respect the constraints upon its behavior are no different that that placed upon a sponge, an amoeba, or a bacterium.

You'd think that an intelligent species would be able to discover some way to survive without necessarily dominating to the point of death a differing society.

However it hasn't happened yet Exclamation

Our societal behavior may be compared as another facet of the process of evolution if one considers a society as a species. Understanding this may be the first step in controlling the very wasteful methods of evolution as a method of determining survival!

It costs nothing to hope, or to reach for the stars Exclamation

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OGIONIK wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
oh i dunno, there ought to be more philosophy in politics but there isn't.

since philosophy has no place in a political forum, and this thread has some philosophy, this might be the ideal place. for partisan pseudopolitical garbage like we have in the states, the politics forum is ideal- i thought this thread transcended that a bit, doesn't that qualify as philosophy here? after all, it's purely hypothetical

OK, perhaps this is something approaching a philosophical question/argument

ogionik wrote:
why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?

SORRY I GO OFF ON TANGENTS ALOT, SUGAR AND TRANS-FAT SATURATED DIET INDUCED ADD OR SOMETHING

But this is clearly politics

ogionik wrote:
Then i saw the story on the fake preacher who was also a lead guy in the red cross during katrina on maury? or someshit. he bullshitted his resume.
Everyone was booing, and i was thinking "thats the american way, why are people complaining?"

The system is setup to fail you, if you are honest. this is the biggest thing ive learned growing up in america, to be succesful you must lie cheat and steal, or have friends and family that can help you and back you up. otherwise you will have to get lucky and create microsoft or google.

I mean seriously, we murdered native americans to steal their land, how can we say we have any morals at all if we stole this country in the first place? Now we are murdering iraqis for their oil.

Actually, I would describe it as idiocy, but given the choice between philosophy and politics, it's clear it is the latter.

Let's try not to foul other sub-forums in A2K with POLITICS.

No one would be very understanding of someone who posted a recipe for Apple Brown Betty in the Phliosophy sub-forum, so let's not tolerate political posts either.

why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?

yeah that was the aim of the post, that one question. sorry i dont very often get to talk or discuss things with people who have, umm intelligence or informed opinions. i get a little overzealous im sure most of you have noticed ;D AND YEAH THE TANGENTS are a problem. im working on it...

Late to return but....

I'm not sure why the quoted post led to this

"why is it we completely disregard the well-being of individuals in order to profit?"

but it's an interesting question.

First off, I would argue that we are not guilty of the transgression you describe...not by a long shot.

Secondly, I would argue that those who might discount the well-being of individuals in order to profit don't even approach complete disregard.

Finally, I would argue that we have conflicted genetic programing --- self-interest vs altruism --- that will always, ultimately, default to self-interest. After all, paradoxical as it may seem, altruism is a mechanism for self-interest.

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The american way.

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