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Illegal abroad, hate websites thrive in USA

 
 
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 04:51 am
This has been often discussed here - now it's a topic on the political stage again: the EU and the US are at odds on spech limits

A report in today's Chicago Tribune

http://i18.tinypic.com/6z78iso.jpg http://i16.tinypic.com/7y2j1c6.jpg

Quote:
Illegal abroad, hate Web sites thrive here
1st Amendment lets fringe groups use U.S. servers to spread message around the world


By Russell Working | Tribune staff reporter
November 13, 2007

It might come as a surprise to the soldiers who defeated fascism in World War II, but the United States has become a refuge for Nazism and other brands of extremism over the last decade.

On the Internet, that is.

Hundreds of foreign-language Web sites?-some tied to the Chicago area?-are using U.S. servers to dodge laws abroad that prohibit Holocaust denial or racist and anti-Semitic speech. Run by hosts in the United States, they thrive out of reach of prosecutors in Europe, Canada and elsewhere.

Locally, the connections range from Radio Islam, a hate site inspired by a Moroccan exile in Sweden, to a site created by a former Cicero man who was extradited to Germany for Holocaust denial. One Chicago server company is home to as many as 17 hate sites, eight of them European, a watchdog group said.

In the past, Berlin has estimated that computers in the United States host 800 such sites in the German language alone, although its embassy in Washington says no current count is available.

The noxious sites, often filled with anti-Semitism or crude ranting about blacks and immigrants, spotlight a trans-Atlantic divide over hate speech. Many European countries have criminalized Holocaust denial or racist speech, while the 1st Amendment grants Nazis and other fringe groups the freedom to spread their message in the U.S.

"Essentially, our view is it's better to be able to confront their ideas and see what they're up to," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization. "But most Europeans regard the Americans as insane on this point. They really do."

Radio Islam, which lists a Chicago post office box as its contact address, has frustrated the Swedish government for years, prosecutors said in phone interviews. It is hosted on a server in Washington state, and its contents include paranoid writings and the complete text of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in at least 17 languages.

Much of the site is devoted to extolling Ahmed Rami, a Moroccan exile in Sweden who claims he fled to Europe after attempting to assassinate his country's king. In his adopted home, he made vitriolic radio broadcasts until Swedish authorities shut down his program and jailed him in the 1990s.

But suddenly the U.S.-based Radio Islam Web site popped up promoting Rami's paranoid views that the United States is occupied by Jewish forces, Hitler was a misunderstood hero, and Judaism is not a religion, but a "dangerous Mafia."

In an interview from Stockholm, Rami claimed to have nothing to do with the site.

"It's a group of men or teenagers who put it up," Rami said. "Sometimes I write something, and it ends up on their Web site."

(The Rami-oriented site has nothing to do with another Chicago-based Radio Islam, which disavows racism and reports it has interviewed Holocaust survivors on the air.)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 04:51 am
Quote:


Chicago-area attack in '99

Little study has been done on the extent to which the Web inspires real-world crime, but Brian Marcus, director of Internet monitoring with the Anti-Defamation League in New York, said cyber hate motivated Benjamin Smith, a Wilmette man who shot his way across Illinois and Indiana in 1999.

He targeted blacks, Jews and Asians, killing two people and wounding nine before committing suicide.

"[Smith] even said in an interview that it was through the Internet that he discovered the World Church of the Creator," Marcus said, referring to an Illinois group now called the Creativity Movement. "And then in July 1999 he goes on a real-world, multistate killing spree."

The violence is not limited to the United States.

British and Polish journalists and human-rights activists have demanded their governments shut down two allied hate sites called Redwatch. The sites publish "enemies lists" with home addresses, and they have been blamed for egging on violence by the far right.

British journalist Peter Lazenby, a reporter for the Yorkshire Evening Post, found his photographs and former address posted on the British version of Redwatch, which maintains three Web addresses on U.S. servers.

After Redwatch posted its blacklist, a thug stabbed a trade union leader in the face outside his home last year, and two schoolteachers' home and car were firebombed in 2003.

"The government says because these sites are based in the United States and [because of] your 1st Amendment, nothing can be done," Lazenby said from Leeds, England. "Well, they certainly manage to shut down pedophile sites and arrest the people behind them."

Redwatch says it doesn't encourage violence and was created in response to leftists' attacks on white nationalists.

"We consider Marxists and Capitalists as traitors and they will face the people's courts someday to pay for their crimes," Redwatch said in an online statement.

In Warsaw, authorities have struggled to shut down the U.S.-hosted, Polish-language Redwatch. The site promotes the message of the Creativity Movement, which formed in Illinois and has long included Chicago Polish neo-Nazis.

A multilingual Web site established by a Cicero man continues to sell literature and raise money for the man's defense even though he was deported to Germany in 2005 to serve a prison term for Holocaust denial.

In 1995, the man, a German citizen named Germar Rudolf, registered a site for the Belgian Foundation Vrij Historisch Onderzoek (Free Historical Research). Pressured by authorities there, he moved his publishing operation to England and then New York. The site is now hosted on a Texas server.

A former chemist, Rudolf wrote a 1993 report in Germany that disputed the Nazi gassing of Jews at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. He was convicted of inciting racial hatred and fled, eventually entering the U.S. illegally from Mexico, federal officials said.



'The cost of this freedom'
Karl Zimmerman?-whose Steadfast Networks in Chicago has hosted as many as 17 hate sites, according to the Anti-Defamation League?-said there are only two Web sites he knows of that have drawn several complaints, although some companies that are customers may host other sites.

Zimmerman said that as long as the content is legal, Steadfast doesn't enter into a debate about the content.

"Yes, there will be cases where we don't agree with what is said, but that is the cost of this freedom," Zimmerman said Monday in an e-mail.

One of the most prolific hosts of foreign racist sites is Gary Lauck of Lincoln, Neb., a former Chicago resident who claims to head the American branch of the National Socialist German Workers Party. Lauck, who spent time in a German prison for racial hatred, hosts about 80 German, Swedish and other foreign Web sites.

Clients often approach Lauck through anonymous e-mails, so that even he doesn't know their identity.

"We'll say, 'OK, in the future, all you do is send an envelope with some Euro bank notes in it and say this is for Web site XYZ,' " Lauck said.

One client is the Danish National Socialist Movement. While the Nazi party is legal there, it asked Lauck to host its backup Web site.

"We had an attack by left-wings a short while ago," said party leader Jonni Hansen, "and our Web hosting by Lauck rescued us, because we were thrown out of the Danish Web server."

Stormfront White Nationalist Community, based in West Palm Beach, Fla., is the giant of international Web hate sites. It hosts discussion groups in 20 languages and boasts more than 111,000 members.

Spokesman Jamie Kelso portrays Stormfront as simply a white-interests organization, not unlike those that lobby for blacks or Latinos.

But Stormfront members exchange racial slurs and cheer on violent video of Russian skinheads beating up minorities.

Kelso said it's clear why the site draws foreigners.

"No other country has a 1st Amendment," he said. "In Canada, where we're very big, you can be jailed for what's called hate speech. You can be jailed and fined and sanctioned. Same thing in Germany."

The connections of the Rami-oriented Radio Islam to Chicago are as obscure as the link to Rami, the Swedish-Moroccan founder of the radio program. The site is held by a Mohamed William, but a letter to the Chicago post office box went unanswered.

Whether he is behind Radio Islam, Rami is delighted with the site?-and the potential of the Web.

"The Internet is more free," he said. "It's difficult to control. The Internet is a fantastic revolution in the modern times."

[email protected]
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 05:59 am
we might be able to come up with some way to address this properly if we (as a country) weren't busy censoring *everything else.*

these neo-nazis are scum, but that doesn't change my sig. censorship is ugly even when the good guys do it. i think information can be addressed with information, but ideally, the internet would make it difficult to regulate speech on the whole. vox populi, and all that. nazis can't be brushed under the carpet any more than cockroaches can.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 12:13 am
This excerpt from one of the articles Walter has posted is, I believe, telling:

"The government says because these sites are based in the United States and [because of] your 1st Amendment, nothing can be done," Lazenby said from Leeds, England. "Well, they certainly manage to shut down pedophile sites and arrest the people behind them."

I may be reading something more into this comment than was intended, but it certainly seems like Mr Lazenby is suggesting that these sites are at the least, the equivalent of pedophile sites, and implying that the Puritanical American conservatives in power will bend the First Amendment to combat pornography but not hatred and intolerance.

I suspect that the American government would be willing to take legal action against a site that it believed was truly inciting violence. Some Free Speech zealots (on both sides of the spectrum) might not have a problem with a site that publishes names and addresses and then calls on others to punish these folks in some way, but I do and I believe so would the American Justice Dept.

On the other hand, some damaged beast can use the internet to publish ridiculously hateful comments about any specific group of people without presenting an actionable danger. The mere fact that the comments are hateful and repugnant does not deserve censorship.

Of course those of us who find them objectionable would be pleased to see them disappear, but that is an obviously slippery slope upon which to base policy.

Another factor in this matter is that whatever danger exists seems to run within lands outside of the US. Not a great reason for the American government to take less interest than in child pornography, but given the need to prioritize concerns, it is somewhat understandable.

Those who object to these sites should address them with their own governments. The US government will react more quickly and substantively to the expressed concerns of foreign governments as opposed to foreign interest groups - particularly when those groups find it impossible to urge the US to take action without spooning in gratuitous insults.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 12:22 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
This excerpt from one of the articles Walter has posted is, I believe, telling:

"The government says because these sites are based in the United States and [because of] your 1st Amendment, nothing can be done," Lazenby said from Leeds, England. "Well, they certainly manage to shut down pedophile sites and arrest the people behind them."

I may be reading something more into this comment than was intended, but it certainly seems like Mr Lazenby is suggesting that these sites are at the least, the equivalent of pedophile sites, and implying that the Puritanical American conservatives in power will bend the First Amendment to combat pornography but not hatred and intolerance.


O posted only one article here.

And I just take the comment you highlened as what it says: some wbesites: with other stuff on the internet something can be done.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Those who object to these sites should address them with their own governments. .


I think that such is done and has been done before.
And I think that's no-one's other business that these sites run the USA - if the laws allow it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:14 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
This excerpt from one of the articles Walter has posted is, I believe, telling:

"The government says because these sites are based in the United States and [because of] your 1st Amendment, nothing can be done," Lazenby said from Leeds, England. "Well, they certainly manage to shut down pedophile sites and arrest the people behind them."

I may be reading something more into this comment than was intended, but it certainly seems like Mr Lazenby is suggesting that these sites are at the least, the equivalent of pedophile sites, and implying that the Puritanical American conservatives in power will bend the First Amendment to combat pornography but not hatred and intolerance.


O posted only one article here.

Since you insist on being so anal --- I assume you meant "I posted only one article here."

If that's the case, what were you quoting at 3:51am on Nov 13th?


And I just take the comment you highlened as what it says: some wbesites: with other stuff on the internet something can be done.

You are more charitable than I.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Those who object to these sites should address them with their own governments. .


I think that such is done and has been done before.

Not enough, apparently.

And I think that's no-one's other business that these sites run the USA - if the laws allow it.

Good for you Walter --- sometimes I make the terrible mistake of reading in underlying motive or prejudice in your posts. I suspect it is a language thing. Unfortunately, I cannot converse with you in your native tongue.

But then again, you may actually be one sly SOB peaking from behind the veil of lingual disability.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:20 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If that's the case, what were you quoting at 3:51am on Nov 13th?



What the sourced quote says:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:34 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If that's the case, what were you quoting at 3:51am on Nov 13th?



What the sourced quote says:

Walter Hinteler wrote:


OK --- part II of article I. So you only "posted" one article.

Do you take some strange pleasure in being correct about something so precise but so meaningless?

Or perhaps in your world/culture this is a significant issue. If so, I will never emigrate to Germany, despite my Teutonic heritage.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:45 am
I'd just tried to avoid that someone was looking for a probably deleted quote.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If so, I will never emigrate to Germany, despite my Teutonic heritage.


Great if you can source your heritage back to that tribe. (I only can say mine is most probably from this Saxon [?] region.)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:54 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I'd just tried to avoid that someone was looking for a probably deleted quote.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If so, I will never emigrate to Germany, despite my Teutonic heritage.


Great if you can source your heritage back to that tribe. (I only can say mine is most probably from this Saxon [?] region.)


I can, thank you.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 02:16 am
Rolling Eyes

...anyway, back to Walter's original post: back in 1999 I was working for a human rights group in Slovakia. Big part of my job was developping projects to combat racism, thus also working with police. I have myself surveyed many neonazi websites. Some incited violence directly, some indirectly. Police was helpless, none of the servers were hosted domestically. It is a major problem, since these websites are a major organizing point for the youth with shaved heads. And I stood face to face with the shaved head youths many times, having Roma or African people behind me. No fun. No fun at all. In fact, it's often a matter of life and death.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 02:31 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I can, thank you.


Though this is not the topic .... but "my thread" ...

Just out of curiosity and since I've studied history: how? And from where?

http://i2.tinypic.com/6ylxgqq.jpg
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 04:08 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I can, thank you.


Though this is not the topic .... but "my thread" ...

Just out of curiosity and since I've studied history: how? And from where?

http://i2.tinypic.com/6ylxgqq.jpg


Sorry Prof Walter, but I will not play your game.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 04:23 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Sorry Prof Walter, but I will not play your game.


Game? I was only wondering that you can source your heritage back to the Teutons.

(I've never said that I am or was a a "Prof": at university, I taught "Methods of Social Work/ Social Work Sciences Praxis Related" as a lecturer)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 04:34 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Sorry Prof Walter, but I will not play your game.


Game? I was only wondering that you can source your heritage back to the Teutons.

(I've never said that I am or was a a "Prof": at university, I taught "Methods of Social Work/ Social Work Sciences Praxis Related" as a lecturer)


Blah, blah, blah and blah. blah, blah....Give me a freakin break!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 06:04 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Blah, blah, blah and blah. blah, blah....Give me a freakin break!


I didn't force you to post here.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 08:13 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Rolling Eyes

...anyway, back to Walter's original post: back in 1999 I was working for a human rights group in Slovakia. Big part of my job was developping projects to combat racism, thus also working with police. I have myself surveyed many neonazi websites. Some incited violence directly, some indirectly. Police was helpless, none of the servers were hosted domestically. It is a major problem, since these websites are a major organizing point for the youth with shaved heads. And I stood face to face with the shaved head youths many times, having Roma or African people behind me. No fun. No fun at all. In fact, it's often a matter of life and death.



Whoa!!!! That's scary. I've done that on a way less scary and smaller way here. And even our local pathetic losers are scary en masse.


Are some of the sites hosted in the US, Dagmaraka?


Is it your view that they ought to be shut down?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 10:03 am
dlowan wrote:
Are some of the sites hosted in the US, Dagmaraka?


I would think so - if sites with German, Polish etc origin are hosted there, and since it's nearly impossible to host them in Europe - where else?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 01:58 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Are some of the sites hosted in the US, Dagmaraka?


I would think so - if sites with German, Polish etc origin are hosted there, and since it's nearly impossible to host them in Europe - where else?



Well, kiddy porn sites, for instance, are often hosted in parts of Asia.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Nov, 2007 02:12 pm
dlowan wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
Rolling Eyes

...anyway, back to Walter's original post: back in 1999 I was working for a human rights group in Slovakia. Big part of my job was developping projects to combat racism, thus also working with police. I have myself surveyed many neonazi websites. Some incited violence directly, some indirectly. Police was helpless, none of the servers were hosted domestically. It is a major problem, since these websites are a major organizing point for the youth with shaved heads. And I stood face to face with the shaved head youths many times, having Roma or African people behind me. No fun. No fun at all. In fact, it's often a matter of life and death.



Whoa!!!! That's scary. I've done that on a way less scary and smaller way here. And even our local pathetic losers are scary en masse.


Are some of the sites hosted in the US, Dagmaraka?


Is it your view that they ought to be shut down?


I cannot claim to know how it is now, this was some 8 years ago, but back then, yes, most werer hosted in the U.S.
And yes, I do think that any website that openly promotes racism and violence should be shut. But I also know that it's difficult to monitor and police. I think it really should be the responsibility of the domain providers to make sure the sites on their servers are in compliance with laws... or perhaps it is, dunno.
0 Replies
 
 

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