WISDOM OF TRUST ( or LACK THEREOF ) Distinguished from LOVE

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Love without trust is not love at all.

Perhaps u will enlighten us
as to how u r defining love.

I can love without trusting.
I define love as bearing high intensity good will
toward the person who is loved,
but not trusted.

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This is at least the 2nd thread that you have started
regarding trust or non trust as it turns out.

I am confident that u know
that this is a libertarian forum
wherein anyone is free to start a thread
on matters of interest to him.
If u do not approve of the thread,
for any reason, or for no reason,
u r free to ignor it; posting is not extorted from u.

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One would have to wonder if you have trust issues
that keep drawing you to this topic.

Yes.
I thought I made the point ( hereinabove )
that trusting humans is unwise; is that too complex for u to understand ?

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Trust is necessary to a healthy relationship.

Trust is dangerous,
in that human behavior is unpredictable; ( see Biblical story above ).
If trust brings on DANGER,
then I question ( not to say deny ) whether that is healthy.
Is it healthy to bring on danger ??

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Without trust, there is no relationship.

Even when a lunatic in the street
is beating a stranger on the head with a rock
( we had that happen to a young lady in NY, a few years ago; she was unarmed )
there is a RELATIONSHIP between the lunatic and the beatee,
tho probably lacking in much trust.
I don 't consider that to be a healthy relationship.

David

Do you mean as in a relationship between adult human beings?

In that case, I believe that if there is no trust, there is no love.

I can love children who I don't always trust to know the right thing to do, but that is not an adult relationship kind of love.

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I disagree Intrepid. I think it all depends on what kind or type of love you're talking about.

If you're looking at a person whom you love to be with and envision them as a partner, with whom you will need to fulfill certain responsibilities and from whom you have certain expectations- someone you'll need to be able to rely upon to help you parent children or survive financially, or from whom you expect fidelity- then yes- trust is vital. And love will probably not survive without it.

Candor moves me to assert
that reliability is not entirely consistent with the nature of human beings,
nor of animals, based upon observed behavior, for several decades.

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But if you're looking at a person with love simply because of who
they are to you- because you enjoy their personality or company-
and you have absolutely no other expectations from them-
then love can survive without trust.

Agreed.
This is an example of my belief
that love is defined as bearing a high degree of good will toward someone;
i.e., liking someone intensely;
that when u LIKE someone with enuf intensity, then u LOVE that person.
I love George Washington, tho I never had the honor of meeting him.
( I visited his house, on the 4th of July, and waved my American flag in it. )

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I know this because I love several people whom I wouldn't even trust to pick up my dry cleaning for me.
And what I've found is that kind of love is almost more enjoyable-
because the lines are drawn from the beginning, and it's very, very clear-
you should have no expectations except that they'll be exactly who they
are and you know better than to expect them to be anyone else.

Yes.
That is the safe, healthy and realistic way to look at it.

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It's almost a very pure love - just love, without expectations for anything in return.
In fact, I was thinking about it and I have to say it's the closest I've ever
come to what I'd call "unconditional love".

Yes.
The posters appear to imply that this is not possible,
to the extent that thay have denied that love can exist without trust.

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(By the way- I love alot of people. But the only person I've ever found whom I trust implicitely- is my father. And I don't think I love any of the other people (including my children) any less - some people I even LIKE more than him - but if you're talking trust- he's really the only person (and I include my mother- although I happen to LIKE her personality more than his) that I know I could trust to be totally reliable in terms of me and what I need in my life).

Yes.
Liking and trusting r not the same thing.
David

There are different kinds and depths of love, and trust
plays a part in the 'strongest & deepest' types, but is not overly necessary to 'lesser' types.

ehBeth wrote:

Do you mean as in a relationship between adult human beings?

In that case, I believe that if there is no trust, there is no love.

I can love children who I don't always trust to know the right thing to do, but that is not an adult relationship kind of love.

So if someone is an adult and knows the right thing to do, but doesn't do it- there can't be love in that relationship? So an adult can't love another adult alcoholic who's promised to stop drinking but is drinking on the sly? An adult can't love an adult who has a shopping addiction and spends their joint money on the sly?
An adult can't love another adult who may be a compulsive eater who has promised that other adult that they ARE on a diet and will lose weight?

I think you're inserting harmony (in terms of relationships) for love. Love exists when and where it probably shouldn't all the time. That's the problem with love -it's not something that can be controlled- or at least I've never been able to say to myself, "HMMM- that person is loyal, honest and trustworthy- totally perfect actually - I think I'll love him".

I think trust and love are two totally separate entities - it's nice when they go together - very harmonious- but they often don't. I trust alot of people I could never love, and I love alot of people (and I'm talking adults) I have learned never to trust. My feelings for them are based on who they are- not what they can do for me- and as I said- at least in my life- I often love people about whom I say to myself, "Damn, you better not count very much on this person."

As I c it,
some of the best advice of the Bible
is the story of Samson and Delilah,
wherein Sam was advised to keep certain information secret.
He revealed it to Delilah, and she used it against him.
Things did not go well after that.

I believe that we can take value from that lesson.
Love is best, and safest, without trust.

Love without trust is not love at all.

Trust is necessary to a healthy relationship. Without trust, there is no relationship.

you could define "hate" as the thing which exists to drive all people apart, and love as its opposite, which has the exact opposite effect and purpose.

I can love without trusting.
I define love as bearing high intensity good will
toward the person who is loved,
but not trusted.

Trust is dangerous,
in that human behavior is unpredictable; ( see Biblical story above ).
If trust brings on DANGER,
then I question ( not to say deny ) whether that is healthy.
Is it healthy to bring on danger ??

tinygiraffe wrote:

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I believe that we can take value from that lesson.
Love is best, and safest, without trust.

safest, perhaps. but probably a little closer to pointless. as to whether it's necessary:

In what way would it be pointless? It might be difficult, but I think in terms of productivity or relevance, it's only pointless if you're loving that person with the expectation of benefitting yourself in some way. Maybe the fact that you love that person without asking anything back will change that person's modus operandi in the world. You might be the first or only person in his or her life who is loving him or her without expectation. That might be a new and inspiring experience for him or her. It might give that person the impetus to believe in him or herself or the world at large and make a positive change. If anything - I think this sort of love is at least as deep and productive as the other - and will maybe have more far reaching effects- so it's certainly not pointless.

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but then i said:

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you could define "hate" as the thing which exists to drive all people apart, and love as its opposite, which has the exact opposite effect and purpose.

so i think that rather than being a prerequisite to love, as intrepid's stance logically implies, that perhaps love is something that can create a healthier trust, both of the person loved and humanity in general.

Yes, that's why it's not pointless.

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and in general, trust isn't something i think humanity can survive without.

Why not? Again, I think if people were trusting and were worthy of trust- it'd make things run much more smoothly. But if you've been shown over and over again by experience that trust is not merited in most situations or in most people, you learn other survival skills.

(I'm not speaking from my own life experience here- I'm speaking from years of experience working with people for whom trust in anyone or anything except their own wiles- just doesn't exist).
And people who've had these experiences are certainly able to love- it might not look like the love others see as worthy- but believe me- it feels like love to them.
But this is from my own experience- I don't have very much trust in humanity as an entity...and I've learned to live without that.

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I can love without trusting.
I define love as bearing high intensity good will
toward the person who is loved,
but not trusted.

Trust is dangerous,
in that human behavior is unpredictable; ( see Biblical story above ).
If trust brings on DANGER,
then I question ( not to say deny ) whether that is healthy.
Is it healthy to bring on danger ??

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yeah, whoever wrote that had trust issues.

Maybe whoever can't love someone without trusting them has trust issues. Think about it - if you have got to trust everyone you love as a condition of giving that love - maybe that speaks to issues in one's own background.
But David, sometimes I think you substitute reliability for trust. I remember the story you told about being late to pick up your aunt and she called you untrustworthy and you said you had to agree. I looked up trust and it's "a confident reliance on the integrity, honesty, veracity or justice of another". By that definition, I think you're trustworthy. You just may not always be reliable- as is true about most people at one point or another- (except my dad -he's trustworthy AND extremely reliable).

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there's a lot to be learned from making yourself vulnerable. this is demonstrated by those "trust" exercises, like falling back and letting someone catch you.

"what happened to 'trust no one,' mulder?"

"oh i changed it to 'trust everyone,' didn't i tell you?" - x files

Yeah, there has to be a balance though. I worked at a camp and we did that trust exercise with a friend of mine and all of us who were supposed to catch her dropped her- not purposely- but the fact is we dropped her and she twisted around to try to land on all fours and she broke her kneecap.
I think it's healthy and probably ultimately safer to be self-reliant, within or without a relationship. Because human beings are human beings.

I think trust is boring.

To demand it is selfish and thus only love of the self.

Love that's pure hopes all things,
Believes all things, won't pull no strings,
Won't sneak up into your room, tall, dark and handsome,
Capture your heart and hold it for ransom.

You don't want a love that's pure
You wanna drown love
You want a watered-down love

Love that's pure, it don't make no claims,
Intercedes for you 'stead of casting you blame,
Will not deceive you or lead you to transgression,
Won't write it up and make you sign a false confession.

You don't want a love that's pure
You wanna drown love
You want a watered-down love

Love that's pure won't lead you astray,
Won't hold you back, won't mess up your day,
Won't pervert you, corrupt you with stupid wishes,
It don't make you envious, it don't make you suspicious.

You don't want a love that's pure
You wanna drown love
You want a watered-down love

Love that's pure ain't no accident,
Always on time, is always content,
An eternal flame, quietly burning,
Never needs to be proud, restlessly yearning.

You don't want a love that's pure
You wanna drown love
You want a watered-down love

Why not? Again, I think if people were trusting and were worthy of trust- it'd make things run much more smoothly. But if you've been shown over and over again by experience that trust is not merited in most situations or in most people, you learn other survival skills.

i'm afraid trust might be one of those words that like love, is too imprecise to be agreed on. i may also be guilty of using it imprecisely. i think of faith in humanity as a sort of trust, and without it, i think we'd be terribly conniving people. if there was no one we could trust, i think we'd be a lot more warlike, even a little more like cavemen. of course, cavemen never existed, but i think it would be ugly.

consider the sociopath. with zero trust in the world, i think we'd all be like that. but this is my guess.

as for why it would be pointless... i think love can exist without trust and relationships, but i think that relationships are a way to deepen love,

and while love doesn't require trust, i don't think serious relationships can have as much meaning without at least some trust. if you've seen anything to the contrary, that's extraordinary to me. i haven't. but i will try to keep my eyes open.