Satan - the Quintessential Shyster

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If you look at the story of Genesis as if it were the origin of a legal proceeding, what would you see? Well, consider the allegations made by Satan in Genesis 3: 4,5:

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(4) YOU positively will not die.

While it is obvious that we all die, Satan has managed to convince a huge proportion of mankind that the soul is immortal. This is to say nothing about pagan speculations of heaven and hell.

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(5) For God knows . . .

In other words, God lied.

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(5, continued) that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.

You will be better off governing your own behavior.

Implicit in these allegations is the charge levied in the first 2 chapters of Job that "everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul." (Job 2:4). In other words. no human would serve God, except out of selfishness. Later, even Jesus was given the same test - to the death.

In fact, we are all litigants in the same case:

Jesus made it clear, as did Paul, that the entire world continues under the control of Lawyer Satan. (John 12:31, 14:30; 2Corinthians 4:4) He continues in his efforts to prove his allegation that humans are better off ignoring God's standards.

As the quintessential shyster that he is, one tool he uses to accomplish this is obfuscation of God's message. In doing this he has enjoyed the aid of a seemingly endless succession of witting and unwitting priests.

Both Solomon and Jesus said the truth would be learned only with effort. (Proverbs 2:4; Matthew 13:45) So are we well enough informed to decide this issue?

What is the prognosis for human governments?

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Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger
But we love to try them on

Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?

Don't be afraid to try again
Everone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes

Well, we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?

Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it why can't someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself

You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he isn't always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along.

billy joel, 1977

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Is this as it should be, tiny?

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we just have different views on "satan."

i think all the "evidence" points to him being part of us, not external to us. all i could think of was the song. besides, i remember some myth that he would be unleashed for how long before being defeated? if the table's rigged anyway, we can have a laugh at ourselves. we're supposed to fight him of course... but then one thing that is clear from learning about judaism is that people take these hell things too seriously- i.e. gentiles do Smile

i mean extend the jw philosophy on hell and a merciful god to satan and what are you worried about?

got two horns!
he likes porn!
i got no love for the son of morn!
glorified version of a bogeyman
feels so evil
but naaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

glorified version of a
bogeyman
glorified version of a
bogeyman

there's also the rolling stones version, but they're a bunch of sanctimonious a**holes.

hey speaking of sanctimonious (but i think he's grand) here are some more lyrics i think are truly appropriate:

We're playing those mind games together
Pushing the barriers planting seeds
Playing the mind guerrilla
Chanting the Mantra peace on earth
We all been playing those mind games forever
Some kinda druid dudes lifting the veil
Doing the mind guerrilla
Some call it magic the search for the grail

Love is the answer and you know that for sure
Love is a flower you got to let it grow

So keep on playing those mind games together
Faith in the future out of the now
You just can't beat on those mind guerrillas
Absolute elsewhere in the stones of your mind
Yeah we're playing those mind games together
Projecting our images in space and in time

Yes is the answer and you know that for sure
Yes is surrender you got to let it go

So keep on playing those mind games together
Doing the ritual dance in the sun
Millions of mind guerrillas
Putting their soul power to the karmic wheel
Keep on playing those mind games together
Raising the spirit of peace and love
(I want you to make love, not war
I know you've heard it before)

john lennon, 1973

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Pa was the first of the colonies to legalize witchcraft. I believe the law is still on the books.

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it's that or outlaw religion.

there are far too many symbolic, ritualistic, and intellectual relics of witchcraft in organized religion to divide a line between them in legislation.

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Also, consider the market potentials. PA leads the world in eyes of newts, and finneie snake fillets.

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Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

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bah!

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You forget that God clearly stated that Adam and Eve would die in the same day they ate the apple. The Serpent said they wouldn't and guess what, they didn't. Now whatever Christian I talk to about this subject answers in one of two ways:

1. The entire story is allegorical anyway.
2. God didn't meant die literally, he meant spiritually.

In my opinion the latter is a copout reply designed to make God look as if he wasn't lying to Adam and Eve. But there's nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest that God didn't mean it literally, other than convoluted logic based on an unwarranted assumption that God does not lie.

Then there's the issue of the Serpent. Whoever said it was Satan?

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God clearly stated that Adam and Eve would die in the same day they ate the apple.

Human day: no; God day: yes. (Just anticipating, heh heh).

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. But there's nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest that God didn't mean it literally,

the bible makes a lot more sense if you don't take ANY of it literally.

that doesn't mean it's wrong to take advice from it- "thou shalt not kill." good one! but it doesn't apply to linux.

i take on the bible like you would take on star trek. it's not without merit, and klingons might really exist, and i don't get too worked up about it more than any fanboy. i'm not even christian.

"fanboy" is a bit strong, too, actually. but it's an interesting book.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

we just have different views on "satan."

i think all the "evidence" points to him being part of us, not external to us. all i could think of was the song. besides, i remember some myth that he would be unleashed for how long before being defeated? if the table's rigged anyway, we can have a laugh at ourselves. we're supposed to fight him of course... but then one thing that is clear from learning about judaism is that people take these hell things too seriously- i.e. gentiles do i mean extend the jw philosophy on hell and a merciful god to satan and what are you worried about?

I understand how you might feel that way as we all have within ourselves libido and destrudo. But the bible identifies Satan as an individual. In fact the very name Satan is not a name but a designation meaning rebel or resister.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

You forget that God clearly stated that Adam and Eve would die in the same day they ate the apple. The Serpent said they wouldn't and guess what, they didn't. Now whatever Christian I talk to about this subject answers in one of two ways:

Ever hear the term 'dead man walking? Adam and Eve lost their right to life on that very solar day. But it would be well to point out that the seventh day has not yet been recorded as having ended.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Then there's the issue of the Serpent. Whoever said it was Satan?

That would be Jesus, for one.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

we just have different views on "satan."
i mean extend the jw philosophy on hell and a merciful god to satan and what are you worried about?

Good question. What would you think?

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i think that they wouldn't because they are inconsistant or confused on the matter. but they *could* always be right.

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the bible identifies Satan as an individual.

or *the* individual, i.e. the ego. the force that keeps us all apart.

jesus talks of becoming like a child. i'm not suggesting that a child has no ego, but he might be referring (the way i read it) to being opposite to the nature that satan is.

again, i recognize that you take the issue more seriously than i do. both of us probably thinks the other misunderstands, that's why i think you take it more seriously and maybe why you (might) think i take it less seriously. but i'm only guessing what you think to make a point about it. naturally if you don't think that, in that case if my point applies it doesn't apply to your stance on the issue.

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I believe that the biblical story of Adam and Eve is nonsense. But I have a Deists' attitude!
I don't think that God would 'allow' this serpent, commonly referred to as satan, to overthrow or overrule anything that God laid down as rules. God is more powerful than that. If this satan creature was there, it would've been a part of a plan established by God to open the eyes of relativity to mankind. Hot vs. cold, good vs. bad, etc. Satan, in my opinion, has been labeled a bad guy by religious beliefs. Because in a world of relativity, like we live in, we wouldn't know we were living in perfection unless introduced to the opposite. And therefore, being that God is good, we had to make up something of the opposite, which I believe is where satan comes from.

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neologist wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
You forget that God clearly stated that Adam and Eve would die in the same day they ate the apple. The Serpent said they wouldn't and guess what, they didn't. Now whatever Christian I talk to about this subject answers in one of two ways:
Ever hear the term 'dead man walking? Adam and Eve lost their right to life on that very solar day. But it would be well to point out that the seventh day has not yet been recorded as having ended.

I knew I'd hear some convoluted attempt to explain away God's apparent lie, and this is it.

God never said the right to life. He never said "dead man walking". He said, you would die the same day. If someone came up to you and said, "Don't drink that poison or you'll die in a day", what do you think that means?

In fact, it's very telling that the NIV (at least, as far as I can remember) removes that little statement made by God. He never says "you will die the same day" in the NIV. It means there was no death in the Garden of Eden, which is still nonsensical, but at least it doesn't make God look like a complete liar.

But then the question is, which is the proper translation?

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Then there's the issue of the Serpent. Whoever said it was Satan?
That would be Jesus, for one.

Oh really? It's been a long time since I was forced to study the Gospels year in and year out, the same thing, over and over again. Which verse was that?

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tinygiraffe wrote:

i think that they wouldn't because they are inconsistant or confused on the matter. but they *could* always be right.

Quote:
the bible identifies Satan as an individual.

or *the* individual, i.e. the ego. the force that keeps us all apart.

jesus talks of becoming like a child. i'm not suggesting that a child has no ego, but he might be referring (the way i read it) to being opposite to the nature that satan is.

again, i recognize that you take the issue more seriously than i do. both of us probably thinks the other misunderstands, that's why i think you take it more seriously and maybe why you (might) think i take it less seriously. but i'm only guessing what you think to make a point about it. naturally if you don't think that, in that case if my point applies it doesn't apply to your stance on the issue.

I realize you may believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I'm not sure you know that what I wrote is probably not what I meant.

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bellsybop wrote:

I believe that the biblical story of Adam and Eve is nonsense. But I have a Deists' attitude!
I don't think that God would 'allow' this serpent, commonly referred to as satan, to overthrow or overrule anything that God laid down as rules. God is more powerful than that. If this satan creature was there, it would've been a part of a plan established by God to open the eyes of relativity to mankind. Hot vs. cold, good vs. bad, etc. Satan, in my opinion, has been labeled a bad guy by religious beliefs. Because in a world of relativity, like we live in, we wouldn't know we were living in perfection unless introduced to the opposite. And therefore, being that God is good, we had to make up something of the opposite, which I believe is where satan comes from.

What you (and some other members of this board) are saying is that all the evil and suffering in this world existed at one time only within the mind of God, and that he unleashed it upon his sentient creation in a colossal act of intergalactic sadism.

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Satan - the Quintessential Shyster

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