Build your own Water-Fuelled engine

anakpawis... still waiting for that post over at eng-tips forums... are you afraid that people who really know their stuff might prove you wrong?

If you're so sure about your engineering genius, why aren't you posting it on an engineering forum. I'm sure they would LOVE to hear about your new discovery...

I had to laugh when I went over to eng-tips.com and found this post in another hydrogen thread. Totally unsolicited, I didn't post it, just thought more sensible counterpoint might be in order. Does this sound familiar to anyone else?

I had to laugh myself..lol

That is so stupid. Anybody knows what to do when your running low on fuel....just add some more.

Add more water!

Don't make it complicated.

And if you had one shred of intelligence you would see that water is the PRODUCT, not the fuel. To make it a fuel you have to split it using energy.

You really should give this up. No one is on your side. You're so far off base. Until you personally build one and prove it to me, you're just blowing hot air. You try to come off as this expert but you are such a fool its getting comical. No - it WAS getting comical, now its just tragic and pitiful.

Do you get something by giving up? lol....I guess my integrity, right? lol..

How about you, what is your real purpose by discouraging people to try it and see if it works?

When you going to post the video of your new water powered car anakpawis?

I don't discourage people from doing it at all, in fact I've urged you to do it several times. I'm not asking people to not do it, but problem is this: 99% of people in the world don't have a strong chemistry or physics background. This kind of rampant misinformation is INTENSELY damaging to REAL science. Imagine how insanely difficult it is for real scientists (of any kind, meaning the theoretic researchers would would believe you, or the traditional kind who don't) to do their jobs with 99% of the world asking for impossible things. People like you without the first clue of physics or chemistry start believing in this tripe, post in on the Bible that we call the Internet, and pretty soon every dolphin hugging tree lover is begging the world for "free" energy and assuming that the government is keeping it from us. I am fully aware of many government conspiracies, but I don't believe that this is one of them. There are a few smart minds in the pentagon, they've already noticed that this free energy craze is BS and they don't need to squelch it... it will do its own squelching.

A VERY similar thing happened with the hybrid car. Its a big energy waster that has incredlbly negative environmental impacts from its production. It also uses materials that are very difficult to recycle and therefore its environmental impact is much greater than a comparable non-hybrid. What happened is that the public responded favorably to an idea, car companies saw it, and hired engineers to build it so they could capitalize on our stupidity. Engineers (I was one of them for three major auto manufacturers) were paid to be counterintuitive. Its like hiring a highly talented opera singer to sing a jingle for a pizza joint, or hiring a fine artist to paint lines on the highway. You have an uneducated public clamoring for something and (in the case of the hybrid) it was physically possible so real scientists built something that they knew was counterintuitive. I'm trying to expose the truth for two reasons; first, no good comes from experimentation when your research is wrong. If you start a scientific process with "1+1=3" as your basis, the entire experiment will teach you no truth and provide no theory. If you tell the public that 1+1=3, they'll believe it if is sounds like a benefit to them. Secondly, I take great offense when my fellow humans are duped by things when they know better. As a culture we are still SO young and its frustrating to see what we COULD be and then have misinformation like this stall us for another decade of what could be enlightenment.

In the case of "free energy" powered cars what is happening is that the public is clamoring for this free energy and when the capitolist market doesn't jump on it, they assume that its a government conspiracy keeping the common man down. The truth is that auto makers, engineers, and scientists are laughing at the sheer stupidity of people asking for something that doesn't exist, never will exist, nor can it be manifested by faith or science.

I've explained to you about 15 times why it can't exist. I've used analogies, formulas, and explanations and all you can do is say "add more water." You won't run out of water, you'll run out of energy. Water is not a fuel, its the product of a fuel and oxygen combining. I have several ideas that might explain your behavior:

1 - you haven't read my posts
2 - you don't understand my explanations, which could be because I didn't properly explain, or because your mind works more abstractly than linearly.
3 - you have defended yourself for 20 pages and you can't bring yourself to objectively view logic without embarrassing yourself
4 - you truly lack the intelligence to see the logic. That's not an insult, just a possibility.

You believe that a rock has the ability to roll downhill, up the next, and still have spare energy to fly off into the air, so you already believe that all known physical theory is 100% incorrect. If you believe that this hydrogen generation system truly works in a closed system, then by that paradigm you cannot believe that we are held to the earth by gravity, that friction does not exist, that energy cannont change states, nor can it be transferred from one item of matter to another. That's just fact. So to test your theory you can simply stick your hand in a hot oven and pull out the casserole with your bare hands because you believe that not only will the pan not burn your hands, but that heat was never transferred into the pan. Enjoy your cold casserole.

You are caught in a complete paradox. Let's say you build one of these hydrogen powered cars. Do you think the engine will get hot as it runs like its gasoline counterpart? If you do believe that, then you cannot believe that it will work. If the engine gets hot, that means some of the energy from combustion is escaping the system. It vanishes into thin air. If the engine makes any noise, that is energy being given off and lost to the atmosphere. If there is any friction in the engine, that is energy that is wasted. Since it requires the same amount of energy to pull water apart as you get back (which is not even arguable) when you combust it, you're losing energy. You can add all the extra water you want, but your batteries will drain.

Let me ask you two simple questions. Answer them for me and that will put me in a frame of reference so we can talk intelligently about this without all the arguing. Its not a physics test, just trying to figure out how an intelligent person could believe these things. If I find out what you believe maybe we can get to the root of our disagreement.

1) Do you believe that if it takes "y" amount of energy to pull water apart into H and O, that you can get "10y" energy back when you combust it?
2) Do you believe that when you combust a fuel in an engine, 100% of the energy given off makes its way to the crankshaft as work?

So, anakpawis... after having your idea ridiculed over at eng-tips forums, then having your posts removed, then HAVING YOUR USERNAME REMOVED FROM THE SITE, have you reconsidered your position?

Not only did they find your ideas impossible, they booted you from the site for posting it. Ouch.

I took your challenge and spoke up in that eng-tips forums. Now do you see the power of censorship? Why are they so afraid to discuss the idea that we can harness energy in water?

I was not even rude and they banned me. Imagine if I'm banned in this forum too, then you will all be thinking one way...lol

Actually I think it is silly to be afraid of one voice. I'm one out of so many. Many people are realizing the truth about energy. And nobody can stop the truth. Science will live. Energy is free.

Oh dear god... the power of censorship?????? That's the best you could come up with?

"Of course... I can't be wrong, its the billions of people who know what they're doing CENSORING me."

My next challenge is: answer my two questions.
Then the next challenge is: buy one of these kits and build it.

Answers.

Question 1. Yes.
"Weak bonds are bonds that form between different molecules or within different parts of a large molecule. While these bonds are not strong enough to hold a molecule together they are extremely important because of their large number. There are three basic types of weak bonds (Hydrogen bonds, Hydrophobic Interactions and Van der Waals Forces).

A. Hydrogen Bonds

These bonds are the result of a hydrogen atom being bonded to another atom (one with high electronegativity) via a polar covalent bond. The resulting molecules have partial charges on different parts of the molecule. In which the other atom has a strong attraction for electrons. Although these bonds are very weak, in biological systems they are very important.

Water are a good example of a molcule that readily forms hydrogen bonds. Each molecule contains polar covalent bonds between the hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom. The result is that the oxygen end of each molecule has a partial negative charge and the hydrogen end of each molecule a partial positive charge. These partial charges attract one another resulting in a weak bond that holds molecules of water to each other."

Question 2: No. There's lost in efficiency. I believe you are very familiar with the law of conservation of energy.

If it is a weak bond why do you think you get more energy out of making the bond than it takes to break it?

It would be a weak bond all the time would it not?

If you separate the apples and oranges from a basket, the energy you used to separate them does not affect the properties of sweetness of each element.

Hydrogen is combustible. Apple is red.

Oxygen smells good. Orange is acidic.

Thanks for answering those questions. I want to talk about this first. Here is one of your fundamental flaws in thinking. You can't use the apples and oranges theory here. You are not using hydrogen for its properties, nor are you using oxygen for its properties. You are simply pulling them apart and then putting them back together. They don't get consumed like a tasty apple. A more appropriate analogy is that if you separated apples and oranges in a basket, it would take the same amount of energy to put them back together. The apples and oranges don't themselves change state, neither do the oxygen and hydrogen. They remain H and O. You aren't using them, you're just harnessing the energy it gives off when you combust it. So the net result is that you've pulled apart apples and oranges, then put them back together. The same amount of energy is used.

Again, I'll use the magnet analogy. If you have two magnets stuck together, they are holding each other with a force of X. If you pull them apart, you must exert a force greater to or equal to X. If you let them slam back together, they give you back X. It takes the same to pull them apart as you get back when you recombine them. The reaction between O and H is very similar. They are polar covalent bonds as you pointed out (well actually they are a secondary covalent sharing bond but that's because H only has one electron) Its just like two magnets, period. We don't pull them apart and then use them, we pull them apart and put them back together.

Ok, so you've just shown me that it takes "y" energy to separate them. What makes you think you can get "10y" back? I say this because this is an absolute fundamental of the law of conservation of energy. If it takes "y" to separate them, there is only "y" energy available when it goes back together. I can't stress how fundamental that is and it is at the heart of our disagreement. If you truly believe that you can get back more than you put into it, then your logic is flawed and we have no point continuing this discussion. I can't prove anything to you if you don't have the necessary background on the topic.



Ok, so now that we're on this topic I'll tell you why we think you're incorrect in your logic path.

Let's take a fixed, closed energy circuit like the water fueled car you describe. There is water into which we put "y" energy to split into H and O. It gets taken to the engine where its burned and we get "y" energy back from the combustion. Of that "y" energy, 80% (or 0.8y) gets lost to heat, sound, friction, light, etc. That leaves 0.2y left to do the work. Of that 0.2y, you have to drive an alternator to convert that energy to electricity for more electrolysis. You also have to drive the vehicle and give up a bunch more to the gears, bearings, tires, air friction, etc. So, that leaves you with maybe 0.0004y left over to put back into the hydrolysis reaction. Not enough energy. You are trying to take energy from a reaction, split it up into multiple forms of energy with many loss points, and then you think you'll still have MORE energy left over when its done. Not gonna happen.

for what you describe to work, external energy would have to be absorbed into the system somehow to make up for all the energy that leaked out. Its a closed system. If what you proposed were true, then we would have solved all the problems of the universe right now, but the fact is that the law of conservation of energy applies to EVERYTHING, not just one or two things. If you believe that the answer to #2 is "no" then you must accept it in all other reactions as well. You can't get more back from combusting something than it takes to pull it apart.

Many of the videos you see on the internet claim you can do it with magnets, tin foil, or a car battery, but the fact is, even a tiny 1.0L 4-stroke engine ingests 1500 liters of gasses PER MINUTE on the highway. Just imagine 750 bottles of pepsi per minute. Nothing could possibly supply the amperage load (especially at 12v) to supply that much gas to the engine. Just quick and dirty math, it would take somewhere north of 140,000 amps to electrolyze that much H and O to support even a tiny little engine. The very second you supply a tank of water with 140,000 amps, it would instantly vaporize to steam. The resistance to conduction would superheat the water long before it could electrolyze it.

Not to mention, nobody makes 1000/0 gauge wire

Now... I must point out that I fully believe that maybe the law of conservation of energy is false and we just don't have minds smart enough to do it, but at this point in our evolution, its a law and it must be accepted and followed. It won't be magically subverted without knowing how. I look forward to that day when your ideas can be put into action, but as for now, its just not possible anymore than beaming up scotty to a spaceship.

Funny, I seem to remember that hydrogen bonds were considered strong bonds. That is the reason that water has such a high specific heat. That is the reason that H3O (deuterium) is used to cool nuclear power plants - because the extra hydrogen bond provides for a higher specific heat.

All matter has it's own natural frequencies. Even the strongest structure known to man will crumble to the ground if you shake it at its natural frequencies. Same with water molecule. It's so easy to disturb and separate hydrogen and oxygen with very little energy applied.

"little" is relative. so what's your point anyway? regardless of the frquency at which you oscillate something, the same amount of energy must be put in to break those bonds. it doesn't matter if it's heat, sound or light.

How do you propose to make this frequency? It requires energy. That energy of the frequency must be absorbed by the structure to make it crumble. There must be ENOUGH energy if you want to make it crumble.

VIBRATORY STRESS RELIEF

William F. Hahn
http://ceer.alfred.edu/research/vibratory.htm

"..The results show that the frequency producing the greatest stress relief occurs at the resonant frequency (natural frequency). The reduction of residual stress after resonant vibratory treatment can attain 97%. Sub-resonant VSR treatments get less or no residual stress relief, depending on the frequency level applied."

This process saves a great amount of heat energy to do the same stress relief using just vibration. This gives an indication of small amounts of energy applied in a resonant fashion has a notable heat energy equivalence - irregardless of the heat loss from the furnace.

These scientists are on to something. But what happens when you vibrate in an unabated, escalating process? A whole series of mechanisms combine. It involves known phenomena in physics referred to as Casimir effect, Van der Waals force, Coulomb forces, and a coherence effect similarly found in LASER's. (other more detailed effects such as photonic spectra of longitudinal wave are skipped to keep from getting too complex).

LASER's, Casimir, Van der Waals, ZPE, and Coulomb caf頍

Most people are familiar with the popular laser pointing devices. Laser light is unique in that it is a powerful beam of 'coherent' light. Coherent light means vibrating light with the same momentum, frequency, and phase. This type of light is 'triggered' in a material by an escalating light 'bouncing' back and forth between mirrored ends in an energized material. It is simply a photonic version of people doing 'the wave' in a stadium. Energized electrons in an atom are triggered into emitting a 'photon' of light as 'the wave' comes through. It is synchronized light - or coherent light.

When heat is applied to metal, the atoms will vibrate in a random way. This is like billiard balls bouncing off each other. The atoms have forces that keep them connected together even though they are vibrating. These connecting forces are charge based - like static electricity - and these forces are magnetic based - like magnets. These forces are described as Coulomb forces and Van der Waals forces. When heat (vibration) is applied to metal, the metal will start to soften. This softening effect is the changing of the Modulus of Elasticity (it becomes more rubbery). What is happening is that the vibratory movement is affecting the Coulomb forces and Van der Waals forces as these forces act on very small distances. Vibration changes some of the distances (and other complex effects).

Now let's throw in Casimir and ZPE. This is where it gets interesting. Science has proven the existence in one famous experiment of Zero Point Energy by the Casimir effect. This effect creates a powerful force when very smooth metal plates are moved together to very tiny separation distances. The Zero Point Energy then very strongly pushes the plates together as the middle becomes a void of the Zero Point Energy in this region. The result is energy comes from ZPE into our world. This violates in essence the second law of thermodynamics - translation: free energy or energy not from plates that is put into plates.

Now, back to vibration. All vibration should include three forces; Coulomb force, Van der Waals force, and Casimir effects at the atomic level. Dr. Willis Lamb in the 1940's measured a single atomic effect called the 'Lamb Shift'. This is an effect where Zero Point Energy affected the atom and caused an upward 'shift' in the orbital levels of the electrons. Now we are up to four types of factors.

Heat is considered a random vibration and will result in an average summation of effects. The net result is a softening of the mass as heat rises. However, if vibration were created that was very precise and involved the organized movement of the mass in a synchronized (coherent) way, the interesting phenomena start to occur.

Energy grows and is 'magnified'

Tesla was correct in stating how a little oscillator can create tons of force. It comes from within the atoms. Coherent vibration will cause atoms to synchronously collide in greater and greater intensity. This intensity pushes atoms closer together as the synchronous 'wave' bounces back and forth from the ends in a resonating material (such as a metal bar).

This is a metal version of a light laser. Instead of triggering light photons, the atoms are physically rebounding from each other using the added Zero Point Energy in a miniature Casimir effect way. The rebound has more energy than the initial collision.

This escalation of energy within the resonating material will continue to grow as long as the coherent vibration wave is maintained - such as with small control energy of a precision oscillator. At a certain point, the Coulomb forces and Van der Waal forces are overwhelmed, the lattice structure of the material will become very elastic.

At the same time, the power of the synchronized motion within the atomic structure will cause the material to undulate or expand and contract like a 'beating heart'.

This atomic interaction is how the oscillator became 'bonded at the atomic level' to the metal beam. It reveals the highly excited atomic condition.
Longitudinal waves spread to nearby mass
Longitudinal waves or scalar waves are induced into the surrounding medium ('ether' as Tesla referred) and begins to cohere synchronized movement of ordinary rock, dirt, or in other words, simple mass. This mass will then move to the symphony of these waves in unison.

Remember that the energy for all of this is coming from the incredibly huge available energy - Zero Point Energy - that permeates everything (and the universe) as local waves in this medium cause its release. This is where the metric tons of force come from. This is how it spreads many blocks away. This is how rock transforms into a rubbery and undulating motion. This is the secret of the earthquake*.

It's fun giving different materials to the 3 stooges, such as a microscope, a book or a calculator. They always makes me laugh as to what they do with them...lol