is god perfect?

tinygiraffe wrote:

an atheist quoting the bible...

this is cool. of course it would be just as cool no matter what "holy book" it is, depending that is, on the reason it was being quoted. it would be nice if fundamentalists also quoted science books- but then they do, and they haven't experienced the miracle of context yet, as fundamentalism is the murder of context.

I'm not sure why this has even come up twice in this thread....
As an athiest, I do not deny the existence of the bible, I just deny the content. By denying the content, there is no presupposing that everyone does.

I am an athiest requesting some clarification of the terms in their Holy Book so that I can better understand their understanding of it.

It's a fair to have the Christian ask the evolutionary biologists about their understanding of the world, perhaps quote Dawkins, and ask for some elaboration, or some explanation of what evolutionary biology says about this or that.

I could just have easily not quoted the bible and claimed that "the bible says that God is perfect"....what say you of this? But, I would ultimately have been asked when and where the Holy Book made this claim, and have had to provide a citation of some sort. I am simply adding, as an athiest, to the a2k'ers question, "is God perfect"?

If God is perfect, as written in the bible, then perhaps it is prudent to find an operative definition of the term "perfect".

Thou shalt not commit murder, or adultry, would be meaningless if we did not first come to an understanding of what constitutes "murder", or "adultry" in the first place.

If God is perfect, then what is it to be perfect?
I have already admitted to having erred in my initial response, so I have sought to gain an understanding of the question by asking those more learned than myself.

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The conceived God is perfect BY DEFINITION and only by defintion or conception. But that's all one can say in support of his "perfection" since we have no empirical experience of Him.

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JLNobody wrote:

The conceived God is perfect BY DEFINITION and only by defintion or conception. But that's all one can say in support of his "perfection" since we have no empirical experience of Him.

Well, Christianity is foundationally "supported" without any empirical experience (do you mean evidence???) of a God, and, in fact, with no requisite need for empirical experience of said entity. The bible is the proof, the bible is The Word.

I wasn't aware that to be Christian, to understand the bible, to speak on matters concerning God, or to define one of the main characteristics of God, one needed to experience Him or Her. The teachings of Christ, the Acts of God needn't be experienced, but they can be discussed academically.

We could say that God is "blue", or "apple" or "God is hretudenchity" by definition....but what is the operative interpretation of blue, apple or hretudenchity. Calling God blue, apple or hretudenchity by definition is uninformative whether we have empirical evidence for Him/Her or not.

(as an aside, there are millions who have claimed to have "experienced" God, but that is not really the point being discussed here....at least, I don't think...)

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real life wrote:

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

You were pretty quick to call me out with this unwarranted gem.
I've seen a lot of action from you in other threads...maybe the others are right about.

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Candidone1, clever response to my contribution. I was not referring so much to evidence of God as to the question raised of His perfection. As far as I am concerned we cannot know either. Kant's Noumena (the thing in itself) he said is unknowable BY DEFINTION, but he KNEW (by definition) that it was unknowable. That kind of synthetic "knowledge" is no interest to me.

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Nor is it of particular interest to me in my daily life....but I am often curious what drives the Christian....especially when we see common men and women, priests and other religious people refer to God as "perfect".

If God is perfect, and perfect by definition, I am not entirely surprised with the conclusion you have drawn because the poofists I encounter always conveniently speak either metaphorically about God, or literally. When literal talk breaks down, the metaphorical begins--and the discussion comes to an abrupt halt.

I am asking for a literal Christian understanding of the quality of perfection in God. If He is perfect by definition, then the discussion comes to an abrupt halt. Perfect by definition is the same, to me as being hretudenchity by definition. It is devoid of any meaning without a thorough understanding of what constitutes perfect. If we can speak more literally about what perfection in God is, then we can continue the conversation.

Mattew 5:58 says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect". How is the Christian to "be" perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect if we have no real understanding of what being perfect entail?

I haveearlier stated that if a student receives 100/100 on an exam where no bonus marks were available, they received a perfect score. Another member said that that was correct, but only a perfect score in reference to the key. Fine. Compared to something, or in reference to something, we can begin to analyze and discuss. With no answer key, we have no basis for establishing the students grade.

There is one example of how perfect can be examined.

If I am a murderer, I am not likely to be considered perfect in the eyes of God. If I am a paedophile, I am not likely to be considered perfect in teh eyes of God. Mother Teresa, on the other hand, may have met more of the criteria for "perfection in the eyes of the Lord" than the paedophile or the murderer....but then again, she may not have met them all.

What, then, if the bible asks the Christian to be perfect as the Lord in Heaven is perfect....what is the litmus test for perfection? Is it God? If so, what are the actions, qualities, or attributes that the Lord regards as perfect....what are the actions, qualities or attributes that God possesses that we should mimic, copy or bear in order to be perfect as God is.

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candidone1 wrote:

real life wrote:

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

You were pretty quick to call me out with this unwarranted gem.
I've seen a lot of action from you in other threads...maybe the others are right about.

Whatever.

You posted 3-4 paragraphs about how God couldn't be perfect.

I asked you one question about what standard you were using to define 'perfection' and you tell me it's a silly question and you're gonna ignore me.

Suit yourself.

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I don't know about perfect but that entire farce with the Ten Commandments near and on Mount Sinai either suggests God's a liar or senile.

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When a perfect God creates perfect beings having free will, it is with the understanding that rebellion is possible.

It doesn't take a Mensa intellect to understand that rebellion against perfection could and would bring about imperfection. So the question is does the perfect God have the power to remedy the effects of that rebellion?

The answer has been provided by the life and death of Jesus.

All that remains is time for the jury's decision to be carried out.

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real life wrote:

Whatever.

You posted 3-4 paragraphs about how God couldn't be perfect.

I asked you one question about what standard you were using to define 'perfection' and you tell me it's a silly question and you're gonna ignore me.

Suit yourself.

Unlike some in these fora, I have no problems admitting when and where I have erred. I have earlier suggested that my posts were probably misguided or insufficient--certainly my understanding of what perfect or perfection was ended up being insufficient. I also admitted that I am ill-prepared to speak on matters from the Bible and of God and I have twice asked those more learned than myself to bring what they know to this thread. I am simply asking what the bible means when it says that God is perfect. Surely someone knows....

You seem to have a history of dodging or evading direct questions, and of responding to a question with one of your own in order to take the discourse in a direction favorable to you. If you can't answer the question, that is fine. That is what I understand "whatever" to mean.

real life wrote:

1. Who decides what the 'right' answer is?

2. Do we say God is imperfect because He doesn't do what candidone1 thinks He should?

3. Against what standard (whose view) are we deciding who or what is perfect, and who or what isn't?

Not that I should take the time to respond to these questions, but I will to get you to actually play nicely.

1. There is no "right" answer to the question is God perfect. It is apparently a truism that God is perfect. What I seek is a simple definition of what perfect is. Merriam-Webster has no fewer than 8 operable definitions of the term. If God is perfect, perfect by definition, perfect as stated by the bible, what does perfect mean? It has to have a meaning, otherwise, it would have been written that God is hretudenchity. Fine then, what is it to be hretudenchity? This is not a trick question. If God is perfect, what does it mean?

2. This thread and this topic are not about me, my will, or my desires. That is what i meant by avoid the invocation of any ad hominems. The thread is titled, "is god perfect?" I am trying to uncover what it means to be perfect. You can say Yes, God is perfect, but if you have no clue what perfect means in that context, then you have no clue what you are saying about God then.

3. That is the objective. The bible states, unequivocally, that God is perfect. Perhaps he is the standard. Perhaps there is another standard by which he is deemed perfect...but I doubt that very much. I guess the view should be that of the Christian who learns from God, tries to live their life according to God, the man or woman who teaches about God. Are you trying to tell me that the bible says that god is perfect, that Christians are supposed to be perfect as their Lord in heaven is perfect, but they have no idea what perfect means, or what the standard is for perfection? May as well try to be hretudenchity as the Lord in heaven is hretudenchity. Both are equally abstract and equally meaningless with no definition attached to perfection or hretudenchity.

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neologist wrote:

When a perfect God creates perfect beings having free will, it is with the understanding that rebellion is possible.

It doesn't take a Mensa intellect to understand that rebellion against perfection could and would bring about imperfection. So the question is does the perfect God have the power to remedy the effects of that rebellion?

The answer has been provided by the life and death of Jesus.

All that remains is time for the jury's decision to be carried out.

This is generic religious rhetoric at best and and evasive at worst. The relevent question(s) are:
1. Is God perfect? This has been determined to be a truism as stated by the bible....unless you perceive this a lie or a half-truth.
2. Given that 1. is true, what does it mean to be perfect?

You not only refer to perfect God and perfect beings, you do so as if "perfect" means something. Free will is not part of the discussion, unless of course the presence or absence of free will make an individual more or less perfect.

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candidone1 wrote:

neologist wrote:
When a perfect God creates perfect beings having free will, it is with the understanding that rebellion is possible.

It doesn't take a Mensa intellect to understand that rebellion against perfection could and would bring about imperfection. So the question is does the perfect God have the power to remedy the effects of that rebellion?

The answer has been provided by the life and death of Jesus.

All that remains is time for the jury's decision to be carried out.

This is generic religious rhetoric at best and and evasive at worst. The relevent question(s) are:
1. Is God perfect? This has been determined to be a truism as stated by the bible....unless you perceive this a lie or a half-truth.
2. Given that 1. is true, what does it mean to be perfect?

You not only refer to perfect God and perfect beings, you do so as if "perfect" means something. Free will is not part of the discussion, unless of course the presence or absence of free will make an individual more or less perfect.

Perfect could have a relative meaning. What you perceive as a perfect billiard ball would, on microscopic inspection, be seen to have many flaws.

But perfection in a Godly sense would mean God being true to his name, Jehovah, which means 'he who causes to become'. The name implies both free will and the power to see all things through to their intended conclusion.

That we do not at this time see perfection in the world around us is not indicative of any imperfection on God's part. It simply defines the time period in which we live.

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Why should perfection in a Godly sense mean God being true to his name?

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Why should perfection in a Godly sense mean God being true to his name?

Probably because of the conundrum provided by the negative.

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Neo---

This is what I mean by evasive and metaphorical.

I am not referring to a perfect billiard ball because it would be silly to think that we could create something perfectly spherical. Round, yes. Perfectly spherical, no.

When the bible, the single real "proof" of Jesus and God, refers to God as perfect, why should there be any subjectivity to the meaning? I am not referring to man's imperfections. Those are easy to point out. I'm not talking about imperfections in the world. Those are easy to point out.

Red is red, white is white and grey is grey. There are varying degrees which contribute to the subjectivity of the respective colors. Perfect and imperfect are antithetical, just as black and white are "opposites". If something is painted black it is black, if it is painted white, it is white. The quality of blackness, by definition (and I speak loosly of the term "definition"), is not and can not be white.

Perfect and imperfect do not peacefully coexist, especially if we speak in absolutes as the bible has. That god is perfect entails that he is not at teh same time imperfect.

In addition, it is very easy to define that which is imperfect. What is perfection, or what are the qualities of perfection if we can in the very same conversation allude to things that are imperfect? Is perfection the opposite of imperfection?? Do we negatively define perfection by defining it as the opposite of imperfection?

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candidone1 wrote:

Neo---

This is what I mean by evasive and metaphorical.

I am not referring to a perfect billiard ball because it would be silly to think that we could create something perfectly spherical.

Nor was I.

candidone1 wrote:

When the bible, the single real "proof" of Jesus and God, refers to God as perfect, why should there be any subjectivity to the meaning? I am not referring to man's imperfections. Those are easy to point out. I'm not talking about imperfections in the world. Those are easy to point out.

Red is red, white is white and grey is grey. There are varying degrees which contribute to the subjectivity of the respective colors. Perfect and imperfect are antithetical, just as black and white are "opposites". If something is painted black it is black, if it is painted white, it is white. The quality of blackness, by definition (and I speak loosly of the term "definition"), is not and can not be white.

Perfect and imperfect do not peacefully coexist, especially if we speak in absolutes as the bible has. That god is perfect entails that he is not at teh same time imperfect.

Sounds reasonable.

candidone1 wrote:

In addition, it is very easy to define that which is imperfect. What is perfection, or what are the qualities of perfection if we can in the very same conversation allude to things that are imperfect? Is perfection the opposite of imperfection?? Do we negatively define perfection by defining it as the opposite of imperfection?

Imperfection might more appropriately be termed the lack of perfection. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

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I just want someone to explain what it means when the bible says that God is perfect.

If I were to read the sports section and see that Tiger Woods shot a par round, someone who has an understanding of golf could explain what a par round meant.
If I were to read in a "how to" manual for bowling that a 300 is a perfect score ....someone with an understanding of bowling could tell me why they call this a perfect game.
If during a game of cribbage somene was dealt a hand yielding 29 points, those with an understanding of cribbage could explain why many regard this as a perfect hand.

I am simply asking from someone more learned than myself what the bible means when they say God is perfect. If I were to adopt Christianity as my religion, this very basic, but fundamental question would need to be answered--especially if, as we have seen in Matthew, I am asked to be perfect as is the Lord in heaven. If you are living your life as the bible has asked, what are you doing to live according to the Matthew passage, and what does it mean for you to be perfect as the Lord in heaven?

Why can those of Christian faith not answer a fundamental (but elementary) question about their religion, the God they worship, and the quality they are supposed to adopt, without evasiveness and without metaphor?

Can it not be answered?

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neologist wrote:

candidone1 wrote:

Red is red, white is white and grey is grey. There are varying degrees which contribute to the subjectivity of the respective colors. Perfect and imperfect are antithetical, just as black and white are "opposites". If something is painted black it is black, if it is painted white, it is white. The quality of blackness, by definition (and I speak loosly of the term "definition"), is not and can not be white.

Perfect and imperfect do not peacefully coexist, especially if we speak in absolutes as the bible has. That god is perfect entails that he is not at teh same time imperfect.
Sounds reasonable.

So, the qualities of God, namely the quality or attribute we call "perfection" is indefinable. We can only realize what perfection is by naming what it is not?
What then, it perfect not?

Let's compile a list then......

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A little insight into the word which is translated 'perfect' in the passage you cited, Matt 5:48

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&Version=kjv

We can see how the same word is used in other contexts in the NT. Perhaps that will be helpful in showing what meaning(s) the word has.

As in English, so in Greek, one word can have multiple meanings, or shades of meaning.

So, Bible interpretation is not always the '1+1=2' type of process that some would like it to be (present company excepted).

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What a tangled (and muddied) web you've woven. The very question "Is God Perfect" directs us not to the world (i.e., some actual God "out there" and some objective criterion of the ideal: perfection) but to the nature of language and the ways we misuse it.
Real Life, the question cannot be WHO says what is perfect but WHAT determines perfection (what is the standard or criterion for such a determination). THEN perhaps we might ask WHO gets to establish the criteria*, and by what authority (justification) can he do so?

*and by what criteria do we accept those criteria, and how are they in turn determined, ad infinitum.

I realize that I am not untangling the web. But to me my mud looks prettier.

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is god perfect?

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