is god perfect?

Re: is god perfect?

OGIONIK wrote:

Are there any "flaws" in the universe that can be explained only if it was created?

i think if god wanted to prove to us he was the creator he "could" create intentional flaws for us to find right?

Quote:

.........''just as the darkness of the night shows up light, so too through his weakness and impotence, his poverty and need, his defects and faults, man makes known the power, strength, riches, and mercy of an All-Powerful One of Glory, and so on... he acts as a mirror to numerous Divine attributes in this way.''........
Quote:

I think this darkness is one kind of ''flaws''

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OGIONIK wrote:

could god , for example, shed his perfection, to show us that he is there?

to me evil is proof of this. .

It is also true...

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.........Even, through searching for a point of support in his infinite impotence and boundless weakness in the face of his innumerable enemies, his conscience perpetually looks to the Necessarily Existent One. And since he is compelled in his utter poverty and endless need to seek for a point of assistance in the face of his innumerable aims, his conscience in that respect all the time leans on the Court of an All-Compassionate One of Riches and opens its hands in supplication to Him. That is to say, in regard to this point of support and point of assistance in the conscience, two small windows are opened onto the Court of Mercy of the All-Powerful and All-Compassionate One which may all the time be looked through ''

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God is perfect in the way that many fictional characters are perfect.

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Yeah, God is perfect, but God created all kinds of imperfect creatures because otherwise it would be boring as s**t around here.

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Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Perfection entails being without flaw. Aristotle stated that perfection is something that is so good that nothing of the kind could be better.
If God does in fact exist, and if he in fact created man, who is inherently evil or tempted by evil, then one of the creations of God turned out to be inherently flawed.
A flaw in the creation points to a flaw in the creator.

Perfection entails being completely virtuous. Egoism is not a virtue.
God created the universe to exemplify his Glory and he created man in his image. God rewards with eternal salvation only those who worship, believe in or ask for forgiveness from him. In fact, he punishes anyone, by virtue of the free will he has given them, who does not believe in him.
These are all illustrative of an egomaniacal God, who, in the first place, should need no reinforcement from us in these regards.

If God is perfect, then His love would be perfect and unconditional. You can not be perfect and give out imperfect love, or conditional love. We would not see wonton mass murders performed by God, approved by God or enacted through God, in his name. The OT is laden with instances where God is responsible for the murders of innocent people, often women and children....usually because he has become disenchanted with what man is doing.

(There is an obvious contradiction in how Christian theology regards God's reaction to evildoings of man. In the OT, he often kills in order to snap man in line....killing Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexual practices, wiping out everyone but Noah, his family and all the animals because he was angered by all mankind, or decimating Israelites in Exodus for worshipping another God (going with the Aristotlean definition of perfection, God should not feel threatened by the worship of a false, non-existent or inferior God. If God exists and is perfect, there is no chance that there is anything equal or better than He. Again, this inferiority complex rears its ugly head....))

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candidone1 wrote:

Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Perfection entails being without flaw..........

.............as measured against a standard.

It sounds as though you think 'the standard' is your[/i][/u] view of what should and shouldn't be.

Is your view a perfect one?

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This isn't about me or the perfection of my "view". Ask me another silly question like that and I will simply ignore your responses...as others around here should.

If an exam is out of 100 marks, with no available bonus marks, and you get every question correct, you have received a perfect score...yes?

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Yes... against the standard of the professor's key. The concept of perfect without a standard to judge against. So, candidone1, god is pefectly...what?

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Yes.

The question is:

Who decides what the 'right' answer is?

Do we say God is imperfect because He doesn't do what candidone1 thinks He should?

Against what standard (whose view) are we deciding who or what is perfect, and who or what isn't?

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

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real life wrote:

Yes.

The question is:

Who decides what the 'right' answer is?

Do we say God is imperfect because He doesn't do what candidone1 thinks He should?

Against what standard (whose view) are we deciding who or what is perfect, and who or what isn't?

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

Wow, you expect a response from someone in less than an hour. Interesting to learn where your priorities in life lie. I'm finishing up at work and going to the gym....I'll be back tomorrow.

In the meantime I'll allow my new learned friends to explain what perfection is...but I leave you with Matthew again. If the bible refers to God as "perfect", perhaps those who adhere to its teachings can best explain what constitutes "perfect" and, more importantly, how that looks on your Sunday God.
Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

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And those of us who don't adhere to its teaching will be extremely unimpressed by your quoting a work of literature to back your philisophical stance.

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to be fair, he was responding to real life.

i think a bible quote is pretty appropriate then.

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fungotheclown wrote:

And those of us who don't adhere to its teaching will be extremely unimpressed by your quoting a work of literature to back your philisophical stance.

I do not believe in God, therefore the perfection of said hypothetical entity is all hypothetical to me. As an athiest, I would never claim that God is perfect, because I do not believe in that entity to begin with. There are no perfect or imperfect unicorns in my world, just as there are no perfect or imperfect Gods.

So, the question was asked "is God perfect". I must first assume a premise, that God exists, in order to discuss the perfection of that entity.

I have referenced a document that should be regarded as uncontroversial by Christians in order to make the case that God is regarded as perfect. It's a fairly straightforward biblical claim.

So perhaps this is a start point.
The bible says that God is perfect, as per my quote. Given that God is said to be perfect, and given that any definition I give of perfection will be inadequate, what, in the eyes of the Christian, constitutes perfection in the Lord?

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Ok, candidone 1, I see where you coming from. I apologize for any earlier hostility. Thanks for clarifying.

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fungotheclown wrote:

Ok, candidone 1, I see where you coming from. I apologize for any earlier hostility. Thanks for clarifying.

Been a reader of these forums for a few years....that wasn't hostility by any measure. Don't sweat it.

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real life wrote:

Yes.

The question is:

Who decides what the 'right' answer is?

Do we say God is imperfect because He doesn't do what candidone1 thinks He should?

Against what standard (whose view) are we deciding who or what is perfect, and who or what isn't?

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

So, I have not ignored you. I have asked direct questions as per the thread topic.
If you are so inclined, please respond to them with answers, not questions or irrelevent ad hominem's.

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candidone1 wrote:

real life wrote:
Yes.

The question is:

Who decides what the 'right' answer is?

Do we say God is imperfect because He doesn't do what candidone1 thinks He should?

Against what standard (whose view) are we deciding who or what is perfect, and who or what isn't?

Go ahead and ignore me. I'm not surprised you copped out so soon.

So, I have not ignored you. I have asked direct questions as per the thread topic.
If you are so inclined, please respond to them with answers, not questions or irrelevent ad hominem's.

Your post I responded to asked no question.

You said:

candidone1 wrote:

Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Perfection entails being without flaw. Aristotle stated that perfection is something that is so good that nothing of the kind could be better.
If God does in fact exist, and if he in fact created man, who is inherently evil or tempted by evil, then one of the creations of God turned out to be inherently flawed.
A flaw in the creation points to a flaw in the creator.

Perfection entails being completely virtuous. Egoism is not a virtue.
God created the universe to exemplify his Glory and he created man in his image. God rewards with eternal salvation only those who worship, believe in or ask for forgiveness from him. In fact, he punishes anyone, by virtue of the free will he has given them, who does not believe in him.
These are all illustrative of an egomaniacal God, who, in the first place, should need no reinforcement from us in these regards.

If God is perfect, then His love would be perfect and unconditional. You can not be perfect and give out imperfect love, or conditional love. We would not see wonton mass murders performed by God, approved by God or enacted through God, in his name. The OT is laden with instances where God is responsible for the murders of innocent people, often women and children....usually because he has become disenchanted with what man is doing.

(There is an obvious contradiction in how Christian theology regards God's reaction to evildoings of man. In the OT, he often kills in order to snap man in line....killing Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexual practices, wiping out everyone but Noah, his family and all the animals because he was angered by all mankind, or decimating Israelites in Exodus for worshipping another God (going with the Aristotlean definition of perfection, God should not feel threatened by the worship of a false, non-existent or inferior God. If God exists and is perfect, there is no chance that there is anything equal or better than He. Again, this inferiority complex rears its ugly head....))

To which I replied with a question:

Quote:

real life wrote:
Perfection entails being without flaw..........

.............as measured against a standard.

It sounds as though you think 'the standard' is your view of what should and shouldn't be.

Is your view a perfect one?

And you said:

candidone1 wrote:

This isn't about me or the perfection of my "view". Ask me another silly question like that and I will simply ignore your responses...as others around here should......

My response was relevant. Yours?

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Real Life:

So that is why I have attempted to alter the discourse. I clearly am ill prepared to speak to and analyze passages from the bible.

Matthew 5:58 says that God is perfect. What does it mean, then, to be perfect vis a vis God? Others contributing in this thread have concurred that God is in fact perfect. Elsewhere on the internet, I have seen that God is, by definition, perfect. In the bible, God is referred to as perfect. This should surely not be a nebulous term. If the bible says God is perfect, then those of Christian faith should be able to provide a reasonable defnition for us laypeople to work with in understanding The Creator.

For those more learned than I, please explain the term "perfect" as referred to in Matthew 5:58....."your Father which is in heaven is perfect".

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an atheist quoting the bible...

this is cool. of course it would be just as cool no matter what "holy book" it is, depending that is, on the reason it was being quoted. it would be nice if fundamentalists also quoted science books- but then they do, and they haven't experienced the miracle of context yet, as fundamentalism is the murder of context.

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is god perfect?

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