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water softener/filtration system-Rainsoft, Culligan,Kinetico

 
 
m3m3m3
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 01:07 pm
Unfortunately, I can't install the softener myself (no time and not capable). But I guess I should take a step back and ask you guys about our water issue.

We recently moved into a new home and noticed a metallic/rusty smell in the water. We found out about it because we smell it in our sink sponge and wash towels. We really want to just get rid of this stuff in our water and we've been told that a water softener will get the job done (by Culligan). Our water hardness is like 8 or 9, but to be honest I dont care for that slippery feel everytime I wash my hands or take a shower.

Is the softener the best way to clean up my water? A friend told me I should get a whole house carbon filter and dont need a softener. Of course, he is no expert..

Do you guys have any advice? and if we should go that carbon route, what brand or company should we go with?

And it sounds like rainsoft is a definite stay away. kinetico the jury is out. what about culligan (the rainsoft guy said culligan is old technology and to stay away)? thanks again! you guys are great
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 04:28 pm
Are you on city water or your own well?

Do you have a current water analysis or the data from the city water company's web site water quality report?

Does the water itself smell when you draw a glass of it with your nose on the rim of the glass as you run water into it?

How about the hot water when you do the same and smell for an odor?
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 04:44 pm
Gary Slusser wrote:
Kinetico was recently sold to a French company....


I looked that up and that should be a Swedish company, not French.

BTW, paying anyone $3000, or $2500, or more than $1500 for a softener is ridiculous, but people do it everyday.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 04:55 pm
m3m3m3 wrote:


We recently moved into a new home and
noticed a metallic/rusty smell in the water.


Both H & C?
What is the Ph?
Have you seen any blue green stains?
Do you have Iron in your water?

Don't rush to install anything until you know
exactly what you are up against and don't
settle for the cheapest equipment available.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 05:10 pm
You must have missed this part: "
m3m3m3 wrote:
We found out about it because we smell it in our sink sponge and wash towels.
0 Replies
 
m3m3m3
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 06:33 pm
Gary Slusser wrote:
Are you on city water or your own well?

Do you have a current water analysis or the data from the city water company's web site water quality report?

Does the water itself smell when you draw a glass of it with your nose on the rim of the glass as you run water into it?

How about the hot water when you do the same and smell for an odor?


We are on city water. I just found the city water company's quality report. The link is here:

http://www.sjwater.com/quality/wq06.pdf

I tried to smell the water while filling a cup.. I cant really smell it in either cold or hot water. maybe just barely if at all

no blue green stains
from reading the public report I think there is some iron in the water

the Kinetico guy gave me a quote of $4k for the softener and $1600 for the RO (installed prices). the guy said the first year warranty covers labor and parts and the remaining 9 years is parts only from kinetico. the interesting part is he said his service charge for labor (after the 1st year warranty) is a flat rate of $85 regardless of what he needs to do. This seems promising since I read others have big $ labor charges when it comes to warranty stuff.

Thanks again guys!
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 08:04 am
m3m3m3 wrote:
And it sounds like rainsoft is a definite stay away. kinetico the jury is out. what about culligan (the rainsoft guy said culligan is old technology and to stay away)? thanks again! you guys are great


I am always, immediately suspicious of sales reps who bash others', especially when they know little of the competitors' equipment, service or business methods. Even if their product is "best" at great value, with excellent service, many sales will be lost simply because the basis of their sale is to put down the competition.

This represents to lowest form of salesmanship stemming from a lack of professionalism and often shows signs of desperation rooted in frustration. These unscrupulous sales will last as long as the ones who manage them permit it and the number of people they are able to dupe are located.

These methods include but are not limited to: Misquoting the competition, misrepresenting facts concerning their or their competitors' business practices, getting facts concerning equipment completely wrong, exaggerating rare events as common occurences, using disparaging tone and offensive diction and just plain bashing the 'other guy'...all for the benefit of himself at the expense of someone else. If this is the type of person you wish to do business with, then please do so, but most people can see through them, one would hope.

It can happen in any company with any product. Reliable companies will recognize such persons and either correct their ways or terminate them.

However, in some cases management even encourages bashing and promotes it through training, advertising, and even here on the net. Buyer beware and assume the risk.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 09:32 am
m3m3m3 wrote:
We are on city water. I just found the city water company's quality report. The link is here:

http://www.sjwater.com/quality/wq06.pdf

I tried to smell the water while filling a cup.. I cant really smell it in either cold or hot water. maybe just barely if at all

no blue green stains
from reading the public report I think there is some iron in the water

the Kinetico guy gave me a quote of $4k for the softener and $1600 for the RO (installed prices). the guy said the first year warranty covers labor and parts and the remaining 9 years is parts only from kinetico. the interesting part is he said his service charge for labor (after the 1st year warranty) is a flat rate of $85 regardless of what he needs to do. This seems promising since I read others have big $ labor charges when it comes to warranty stuff.

Thanks again guys!

Since you don't smell the odor in the hot or cold water, the odor in the sponge etc. probably has nothing to do with your water. So installing a carbon filter isn't going to solve the problem. Odors are usually caused by bacteria, or a chemical. Bacteria thrive in carbon.

You do need a water softener for the hardness but, there won't be any ferrous (soluble) iron in your water at your house, but if there were, a softener removes ferrous iron.

BTW, I sold a 1.5 cuft softener in your southern CA yesterday for a delivered price of $688.00. It includes everything needed to install it except the pipe and a few elbows and two 1" female adapters. Compare that plus say $450 to have a plumber install it, to the $4000 to Kinetico or whatever the other local dealers charge.

That softener will use 5 lbs of potassium chloride every 8 days on average for a family of two in a 3 bathroom house with a large tub.

I must ask, how does a dealer guarantee a maximum $85 service charge 10 years into the future unless they are recovering the present and future additional costs from their present sales?

That means all those customers that pay the $4K today and then don't need his service are paying for it anyway. And when his costs rise say in 3-5 years, he increases the $4K price. I have never done that to my customers, only those that required me to go out after my free troubleshooting on the initial (tollfree) phone call were charged. That's fair to everyone.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 10:14 am
Andy CWS wrote:


I am always, immediately suspicious of sales reps who bash others', especially when they know little of the competitors' equipment, service or business methods. Even if their product is "best" at great value, with excellent service, many sales will be lost simply because the basis of their sale is to put down the competition.

This represents to lowest form of salesmanship stemming from a lack of professionalism and often shows signs of desperation rooted in frustration. These unscrupulous sales will last as long as the ones who manage them permit it and the number of people they are able to dupe are located.

These methods include but are not limited to: Misquoting the competition, misrepresenting facts concerning their or their competitors' business practices, getting facts concerning equipment completely wrong, exaggerating rare events as common occurences, using disparaging tone and offensive diction and just plain bashing the 'other guy'...all for the benefit of himself at the expense of someone else. If this is the type of person you wish to do business with, then please do so, but most people can see through them, one would hope.

It can happen in any company with any product. Reliable companies will recognize such persons and either correct their ways or terminate them.

However, in some cases management even encourages bashing and promotes it through training, advertising, and even here on the net. Buyer beware and assume the risk.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


Well said Andy.

I am also, immediately suspicious of sales reps who bad mouth the competition.

This tactic does represent the lowest form of salesmanship and does exhibit a lack of professionalism.

Consumers should avoid getting involved with any company/individual that employs these underhanded tactics.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 10:30 am
Notice that the Kinetico salesman Andy just goes on'n on about nothing except other salesmen/dealers. He rarely helps the poster with any problems but...

You guys are right, I do not say things just to get along with, or to go along with, other salesmen and dealers to keep consumers in the dark.

IMO Kinetico and Ecowater softeners are two of the largest rip offs there are (IMO) and I will not stop giving my opinion about them so YOU TWO will call me a "professional".
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 11:43 am
IMO, quality water associates is the largest rip off there is.
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 02:23 pm
Gary Slusser wrote:
Notice that the Kinetico salesman Andy just goes on'n on about nothing except other salesmen/dealers. He rarely helps the poster with any problems but...

Is that right? Umph. You're not TRYING to prove me right, are you? You wouldn't be accusing others of which you, yourself, are so very guilty. My goodness, that wouldn't be very smart, would it? Whew!

IMO Kinetico and Ecowater softeners are two of the largest rip offs there are (IMO) and I will not stop giving my opinion about them so YOU TWO will call me a "professional".


You're not bad-mouthing the competition here, are you? I MUST be misreading this. It appears as though you are resorting to the same aforementioned technique of what would be determined the lowest form of salesmanship.

A "Professional" NEVER feels the need to call himself one; only those who doubt such an qualification feel the compulsion to spout it out. My doctor never reminds me that he finished med school...he just acts and behaves the part and that suits me.

Come guys, stop picking on Gary or he will just continue to devalue his own self worth through a plethora of contradictions, hypocrisies and reflective accusations. Let's stick to the topics and let those who wish to bad mouth others stand alone and try to justify their success at the expense of others, cruel or otherwise.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 04:23 pm
Andy, are you sure you mean to defend the "professional" Kinetico dealer wanting to charge m3 $4000 for the softener and $1600 for the RO?

I know Kevin does because he sells Ecowater. He says the high prices paid are a great investment. Haven't you said the same thing before?

I say they are ripoffs by "professional" ripoff dealers.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Oct, 2007 04:37 pm
Gary Slusser wrote:


I know Kevin ... He says ... Quality Water Associates is the largest rip off there is.


That's much better :wink:
0 Replies
 
Cintobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 07:38 pm
Programming Classic Apollo Water Softeners 20 yrs old
H20 Man......How would I program my softener? We no longer have any of the information from when we bought our system and my salt alarm keeps going off.

Also how do you know when salt is not being used? The salt alarm goes off, but when I look in the container, it appears there is plenty of salt. I do not have any issues with the water, so I think it is working ok.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 09:13 pm
Re: Programming Classic Apollo Water Softeners 20 yrs old
Cintobe wrote:
H20 Man......How would I program my softener? We no longer have any of the information from when we bought our system and my salt alarm keeps going off.

Also how do you know when salt is not being used? The salt alarm goes off, but when I look in the container, it appears there is plenty of salt. I do not have any issues with the water, so I think it is working ok.


Press "quiet alarm" then "SALT" then 2-0-0 then "ENTER".

You just told the computer that there is 200 pounds of salt in the salt tank.
The computer will subtract x lbs. for every regeneration and the alarm
will sound when it thinks it has 30 lbs. left in the tank.

HTH ~
0 Replies
 
Cintobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 07:33 pm
Old Rainsoft system
Thank you for the advice. I added 40 lbs and did exactly what you said. It now reads 40 lbs., but there was still salt in the bin. Are you saying it automatically calculates what I added and what is in there?

How much salt should be added at any given time?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 07:44 pm
Re: Old Rainsoft system
Cintobe wrote:
Thank you for the advice. I added 40 lbs and did exactly what you said. It now reads 40 lbs., but there was still salt in the bin. Are you saying it automatically calculates what I added and what is in there?

How much salt should be added at any given time?


Estimate the grand total and enter that. The Q subtracts on it's own, but you have to give a number to work with.
I prefer not to have more than 3 bags in the brine tank at any given time.

HTH ~
0 Replies
 
bodyspecific007
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 02:54 pm
4k and 1600
I would recommend that there is a pre-filter before the softener. Did these prices include a UV machine (ultra violet protection).
0 Replies
 
blouberg
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 04:45 pm
Re: water softener/filtration system-Rainsoft, Culligan,Kine
Hi.
STAY AWAY from Kinetico, Rainsoft, Culligan, EcoWater, Hague.

The softening resin inside the softener all comes from the same source, so one is not better than the other.

The vessel that houses the softening resin - 90% of the time is fibreglass; few are stainless steel - is all of the same quality as most come from the same manufacturer.

The only thing that seperates the different brands / companies of softeners is the control valve.
The valves from Rainsoft, Culligan and some of EcoWater's valves are made by Fleck, a division of Pentair Water. They are manufactured as propriety valves for these companies, who use their own timers.

The quality of these valves is very poor, and they break ALL THE TIME.
Now comes the fun part!

NOBODY, except the dealer can get parts for them. They charge an arm and a leg just to show up at your house, if they show up at all, and you have NO CHOICE.

Their prices for the water softeners are around 4X the price of anyone else.
The best valve to use is a Fleck valve (their own). They have a 80% market share, so there is no problem of getting parts. Any water filtration company can get the parts if needed (not often).

For example: a 10x54" water softener with a fleck 6700 electronic metered valve - installed - should cost around $700.00. The wholesale cost to a water filtration company is just on $400.00.

I am in the water filtration industry, and I yank out the above control valves and throw them in the dumpster all the time.
Culligan has its own thread inside the vessel, so you cannot even swap out the valve.

It should be a customer's choice who they want to service or repair their product, and NOT be forced to use any particular person.

Use a Fleck product, anybody can work on it, anyone can get parts, and you are not gouged.
 

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