Cub Scouts and religion

Re: Cub Scouts and religion

Diest TKO wrote:

...Please identify the emotional responce I made.

OK. Here is your statement: "Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better"?

Here - I will explain it for you:

You imply that a 'God-less' BSA would be better than the current BSA.

The "God element" is in fact present in BSA - there is no BSA in which the "God element" is not present. Henceforth: There is no precedent for a Godless BSA. At best you're making a prediction of the future based on your own belief system. While this personal prediction may seem sound to you - your personal prediction does not prove it's existence. [Ever heard that before? :wink: ] A belief w/o proof is------emotion-based. :wink:

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I provided a theory, not a conclusion. Religious folk tend to confuse the two and their value. You even admit yourself that there is no-preceedant for a secular BSA. Without isolating this varible, there is no foundation to believe that the inclusion of God has provided any actual benefit.

therefore my statement:

Quote:

Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better?

Is certainly apropriate and definately withing the bounds of this discussion.

Theory
K
O

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Diest TKO wrote:

I provided a theory, not a conclusion. Religious folk tend to confuse the two and their value. You even admit yourself that there is no-preceedant for a secular BSA. Without isolating this varible, there is no foundation to believe that the inclusion of God has provided any actual benefit.

therefore my statement:

Quote:
Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better?

Is certainly apropriate and definately withing the bounds of this discussion.

Theory
K
O

Who said otherwise? Confused

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baddog1 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I provided a theory, not a conclusion. Religious folk tend to confuse the two and their value. You even admit yourself that there is no-preceedant for a secular BSA. Without isolating this varible, there is no foundation to believe that the inclusion of God has provided any actual benefit.

therefore my statement:

Quote:
Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better?

Is certainly apropriate and definately withing the bounds of this discussion.

Theory
K
O

Who said otherwise?

baddog1 wrote:

You should stop trying to prove a negative.

T
K
O

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jake123 wrote:

Quote:
Practice. Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship.

This is the part of the requirement that set this all off for me in the first place.

I put this out there because I am in a state of doubt and I didn't want to take my kids to church and say, "This is how we worship.", when that is not truly the case.

As has been mentioned several times now, there is NO requirement for you to take them to a church. The options are home OR church OR synagogue OR religious fellowship. You are reading things into the requirement that aren't there. There are millions of people that practice their faith at home. If your faith is agnostic or athiest then discuss being an agnostic or athiest with your kids. It's even easier. No rituals to contend with. Razz

Quote:

There is also the "emblems of faith" requirement.

No, there isn't. The requirement is that they do one OR the other. Not both.

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fishin wrote:

jake123 wrote:

Quote:
Practice. Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship.

This is the part of the requirement that set this all off for me in the first place.

I put this out there because I am in a state of doubt and I didn't want to take my kids to church and say, "This is how we worship.", when that is not truly the case.

As has been mentioned several times now, there is NO requirement for you to take them to a church. The options are home OR church OR synagogue OR religious fellowship. You are reading things into the requirement that aren't there. There are millions of people that practice their faith at home. If your faith is agnostic or atheist then discuss being an agnostic or atheist with your kids. It's even easier. No rituals to contend with.

Quote:
There is also the "emblems of faith" requirement.

No, there isn't. The requirement is that they do one OR the other. Not both.

Fishin'! You are absolutely correct. I just looked again at the book, which I have looked at a couple times since starting this thread, and indeed it says, "Do one for God" in the back where the paw prints are filled in!

I swear I looked at it a couple times. It's okay then. I will be able to handle it then. I won't worry about the religious emblem.

Ugh! I can be such a moron sometimes!

But it is fun to watch baddog and TKO argue back and forth Laughing

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sort of like "devil's advocate"
side point- how long have the scouts had oaths like: "...god and my country, and to obey the law of the pack..."

the younger groups in bsa have had that in the official handbooks for decades. i wouldn't be surprised if joe mccarthy or ron and nancy put that in, but i wouldn't be surprised if they've always had that either.

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It goes back all the way to Lord Baden Powell

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[/QUOTE]It goes back all the way to Lord Baden Powell

Quote:

My memory of the BSA history is sketchy at best, but the religious aspect has been a part of BSA from the beginning.

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jake123 wrote:

It goes back all the way to Lord Baden Powell

Quote:

My memory of the BSA history is sketchy at best, but the religious aspect has been a part of BSA from the beginning.

THE SCOUT PROMISE
There are two versions of the Scout Promise (in Australia). The individual taking the Promise may choose to use either of the following:

Version 1:

On my honour
I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to my God, and
To the Queen of Australia
To help other people, and
To live by the Scout Law

Version 2:

On my honour
I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to my God, and
To Australia
To help other people, and
To live by the Scout Law

Once again Religion does not play a big part (if at all) in Scouts Australia.

Jake,
It seems to me that the requirements would be met by discussing why you have reservations about your religion how you used to practice what rituals prayers and beliefs you held.

I would also say that it is a plus for your kids to experience as many different forms of religion as possible. It seems to me that you should give thought to taking your kids to a synagog, a mosque and as many different styles of christian churches as you are comfortable with, perhaps even ask priests, rabbis and muftis to discuss their religion with you and your children. Exposure to all these world views will broaden their horizons.

In my opinion this (broadened horizons) is something seriously lacking in the American culture. Exposure breeds tolerance and reduces fear of the unknown.

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happycat wrote:

Face it, religion is not going to go away, and since it's the basis of all wars in the world, your kids should probably learn the differences.
At the very least, it will help them to become tolerant of others.

The basis of ALL wars? I did not know that. Sounds like a sweeping statement.

No religion = No war? Is this what you tell yourself ?

Lots of wars going on right now over.....drugs, money, land, oil .....etc.

By your logic...no communist country would ever start a war or be involved in one since they lack the basis for it.

History proves otherwise. To think those who live by faith are accused of ignoring the evidence. Nice.

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Bartikus wrote:

Lots of wars going on right now over.....drugs, money, land, oil .....etc.

Police actions (like Vietnam) are not wars.

Scouts itself has it beginnings rooted in war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90N2NVGPSU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1v2JxB5CM&mode=related&search=

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dadpad wrote:

Bartikus wrote:

Lots of wars going on right now over.....drugs, money, land, oil .....etc.

Police actions (like Vietnam) are not wars.

Scouts itself has it beginnings rooted in war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90N2NVGPSU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1v2JxB5CM&mode=related&search=

Were you there?

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Bartikus wrote:

dadpad wrote:
Bartikus wrote:

Lots of wars going on right now over.....drugs, money, land, oil .....etc.

Police actions (like Vietnam) are not wars.

Scouts itself has it beginnings rooted in war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90N2NVGPSU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1v2JxB5CM&mode=related&search=

Were you there?

Vietnam or mudbash?

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dadpad wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
dadpad wrote:
Bartikus wrote:

Lots of wars going on right now over.....drugs, money, land, oil .....etc.

Police actions (like Vietnam) are not wars.

Scouts itself has it beginnings rooted in war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90N2NVGPSU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1v2JxB5CM&mode=related&search=

Were you there?

Vietnam or mudbash?

Congress never declared war on the North Vietnamese however war was declared from the other side. Where was religion it's basis?

http://www.vietnamwar.com/

Can you concede that not ALL wars are carried out on the basis of religion?

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This is really marvellous advice for all parents, let alone parents trying to work around the religious aspects of some groups like the BSA.

dadpad wrote:

It seems to me that the requirements would be met by discussing why you have reservations about your religion how you used to practice what rituals prayers and beliefs you held.

I would also say that it is a plus for your kids to experience as many different forms of religion as possible. It seems to me that you should give thought to taking your kids to a synagog, a mosque and as many different styles of christian churches as you are comfortable with, perhaps even ask priests, rabbis and muftis to discuss their religion with you and your children. Exposure to all these world views will broaden their horizons.

In my opinion this (broadened horizons) is something seriously lacking in the American culture. Exposure breeds tolerance and reduces fear of the unknown.

Understanding of others is rarely a bad thing.

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dadpad wrote:

We don't seem to have this emphasis on religion in scouts in OZ.

Its my impression that American religious groups are using the scouting movement to further their own agenda.

I could be wrong, but I thought the scouts had a religious foundation.

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

baddog1 wrote:

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

Did you ever stop to think that there might NOT be a connection.

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jake123 wrote:

Scouting has been a wonderful experience for me and my boys. They love it and I love the time I get to spend with them because of it. I want to teach them about god and religion without indoctrinating them into any specific faith. That way, they can find their own path to spirituality with a choice.

Kids are going to learn about religion at some point in their lives no matter what, and that's not a bad thing. I think kids should be exposed to lots of ideas and allowed to make their own choices.

I think the Scouts have a lot to offer in a number of ways, and long as you continue to provide a home environment with strong support for their freedom of choice, they will probably be fine.

It's all kind of a matter of degree. If the Scout troop they were in was a bizarre militant fundamentalist cult, then I would say "get them out of there". But if it's just an average Scout troop, then just give them a dose of balance at home and they will probably be fine.

Beside, if you totally freak out and tell them not to even THINK about religion, then they will probably gravitate toward it when they become teenagers just because it's forbidden.

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rosborne979 wrote:

I could be wrong, but I thought the scouts had a religious foundation.

The founder of Scouting Lord Baden-Powell (BP) of Gilwell, was born in 1857 in England. He lived a busy and adventurous life, and as a boy spent much of his spare time in open-air pursuits hunting in the woods, joining his brothers in expeditions by land and in their boats. Thus he developed his powers of observation, resourcefulness and was helped to acquire many useful skills.

He won a scholarship which gave him entry into the British Army, where he was sent to India and served for many years. He tried out his ideas of training soldiers in "Scouting" and taught them how to develop experience in stalking and fending for themselves; and to be observant of all signs that would give them an advantage as soldiers. He set down his ideas in the book "Aids to Scouting", which was used as a textbook for many years.

As a soldier, BP rose to public prominence during the war against the Boers in Africa at the end of the 1800's. Most noteworthy was BP's leadership of the defending force in the seige of the South African town of Mafeking. Baden-Powell returned to England as a national hero in 1899 having successfully defended the town against the Boers.

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Cub Scouts and religion

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