Cub Scouts and religion

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I have twin boys-8 in Cub Scouts. They are at the rank of Bear Cub. The very first requirement for them is "Ways we worship."

Part of the requirement is to practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, etc.

Over the past few years, I have turned more and more away from the church. I have become agnostic and I don't really have any desire to take them to church to show them how we [/I]used to worship.

I am not sure how to approach this. I have stepped down as Assistant Cubmaster, in part, because I didn't think I could be the kind of leader the kids needed or the Scouts would want. My lifestyle and attitudes do not really fit. There is more to my leaving that post than just religion, but this particular topic is one I need to deal with.

Scouting has been wonderful for my boys and our family. We've done many things we wouldn't have if they were not in Scouts. I keep hoping the Scouts will help me teach my boys about honor and integrity, and maybe learn something about that myself. I have not been the most shining example of those things.

Are there any other Scout parents out there with a similar situation?

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We never had that requirement when I was in the Cubs and Scouts. There were occasions for prayers but even back (age 12) then it was something that I was just doing without any real meaning.

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I think your key sentence is "over the past few years, I have turned more and more away from the church. I have become agnostic and I don't really have any desire to take them to church to show them how we used to worship." That's really all about you.

By the time my son was 8 and in scouts, he'd already been to church and "sunday school" (as I stated on another thread) mostly due to family
obligation/appeasement. That gave him a basis for what our family (though not necessarily my) religion entailed.....even though he/we no longer attended regularly.

While I feel that Scouts focus a bit too much on religion, I accepted that, since afterall, we chose to belong. I thought then, and still do feel, that the overall benefits of scouting outweigh any small issues about religion.

Why not look at it as a way for your boys to learn about different beliefs?
You don't have to 'practice what you preach" in this case, but you can tell them what your family religion is or was so that they aren't sitting there feeling out of place and wondering why they don't have one.

Simply explain that you were taught such and such and now that you've grown up your opinions and beliefs have changed, but that they are free to make their own decisions.

Face it, religion is not going to go away, and since it's the basis of all wars in the world, your kids should probably learn the differences.
At the very least, it will help them to become tolerant of others.

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I had a thread about this a while ago, re: Girl Scouts. I remember that when I researched at the time, I found out that Girl Scouts were more lenient about these things than Boy Scouts.

I'm agnostic, as is my husband, and we're leaving religion up to our daughter in a general way. (That is, I don't want to say "I'm raising her agnostic" because we don't make too much of an issue out of it -- she knows that neither of us believe in a god, but that other people do, including several people who are special to us, and that's fine.)

When she was in Daisy Scouts (one hour a month during the school year) I told her that she could substitute a phrase in the Girl Scout promise (I forget what it was exactly, always serve God or something), which she did. At Girl Scout camp this summer, though, she was really exposed to a lot and came home wanting to say grace before every meal and solemnly declaring that she "believes." ("In what?" "God!") I tried not to freak out about it -- reacted neutrally -- and that's faded.

I figure that ultimately I'm teaching her to make her own decisions, and there is a lot that is good about Scouting.

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this thread ties in with Chai's thread about parents and religion, except she asked about our parents....

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=103694&highlight=

Now, it's how we teach our kids. Smile

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Here's my Girl Scout thread:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87176

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Quote:

Over the past few years, I have turned more and more away from the church. I have become agnostic and I don't really have any desire to take them to church to show them how we [/I]used to worship.

Back-pedaling a little, I should have phrased this, "I am leaning toward agnostisism." I don't know, I guess I have become, by definition, agnostic. My situation is that I just don't know. That is different from "I don't believe."

Growing up, I was so sure. I accepted all I was taught (Missouri Synod Lutheran). Now, I just don't know. I started to actually think and question and the answers (from the church) always come up short.

Back on point: We celebrate Christmas and go to church with my dad and talk about the Christian origins of Christmas. I guess that will fulfill the requirement.

I just see so many parents take cop-outs on a lot of the requirements just to move their kids along through the ranks. I try very hard to make a real effort with my boys to actually do the requirments and learn what is intended by them. I guess this one is even more important because I don't want to steer them necessarily away from religion, but I don't want them to develop the blind faith only to become disillusioned as I have been.

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If your kids enjoy being scouts it's fine. There are many good lessons that they can learn in the scouts about dignaty, honor, trust, respecting nature etc.

Same goes with church, I am pretty far from any sort of Christian, but I still can appriciate the community development that takes place in a church.

It's no less valueable.

Honestly, I'm very much against indoctrinating children into religion, I take the stance that we should all be able to form our own beliefs. If your children enjoy the scouts, I'd let them have that experiance and use it as a tool to discuss the world etc with them. I think it is a part of healthy human development to question the universe. This is a great opportunity to bond.

religion independant.

T
K
O

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sozobe wrote:

At Girl Scout camp this summer, though, she was really exposed to a lot and came home wanting to say grace before every meal and solemnly declaring that she "believes." ("In what?" "God!") I tried not to freak out about it -- reacted neutrally -- and that's faded.

That's why I object so strongly to children being taught religion. They are so impressionable, and so easy to indoctrinate. Organised religion relies heavily on that fact.

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We don't seem to have this emphasis on religion in scouts in OZ.

Its my impression that American religious groups are using the scouting movement to further their own agenda.

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

jake123 wrote:

I have twin boys-8 in Cub Scouts. They are at the rank of Bear Cub. The very first requirement for them is "Ways we worship."

Part of the requirement is to practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, etc.

Over the past few years, I have turned more and more away from the church. I have become agnostic and I don't really have any desire to take them to church to show them how we [/I]used to worship.

The requirements for Bear reads:

Quote:

GOD (Do ONE of the following)

1. WAYS WE WORSHIP (Bear Handbook - Page 26) Complete both requirements.
a. Complete the Character Connection for Faith.
- Know. Name some people in history who have shown great faith. Discuss with an adult how faith has been important at a particular point in his or her life.
- Commit. Discuss with an adult how having faith and hope will help you in your life, and also discuss some ways that you can strengthen your faith.
- Practice. Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship.
b. Make a list of things you can do this week to practice your religion as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious community. Check them off your list as you complete them.

2. EMBLEMS OF FAITH (Bear Handbook - Page 30) Complete the requirement.
a. Earn the religious emblem of your faith.

There is no emblem of your faith for Agnostics so that leaves option 2 out. But there isn't any requirement for you to take them anywhere to complete option 1. The idea is for them to discuss their religious beliefs with their parents. It isn't intened to be indoctrination. It is supposed to be an opportunity for your kid to discuss the issue with you. If "practicing your faith" means sitting around watching TV then that's what they do.

When I was a County Commissioner with the Scouts this stuff came up fairly often and we always just advised parents who were agnostic to discuss typical moral/ethical issues that kids can comprehend - honesty, integrity, etc... You may not buy into the 10 Commandments but most agnostics still believe that lying, cheating, stealing, etc.. are wrong.

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Fishin sounds up to date.

Me, I was a Girl Scout in the fifties, and in our parish, it seems to me in retrospect, it was a way to teach us how to make popovers, go camping for a weekend, and take an infinite busride back and forth to Washington, DC, where, I managed to get my first period while climbing the Washington monument and hold the bus up for at least an hour and a half since I had chosen to walk up and down all the stairs. This is either iconic in my life or horrifically embarrassing.

My family was roman catholic then, and me too. Now I'm rather the opposite.

I'm trying to imagine if I'd have signed my children up for that when I was older. (I didn't have children, have a niece for whom girl scouts were not any kind of question).

I might have, if I was my own mother, in 1950. Hard to tell, as my views in those years and these now have changed.

OK, frankly, I'm not so sure scouts and other organizations have so much to do with religion or whatever the enthusiasm, as to whether one wants the children to have an organized life to climb the pinnacles of. Whether to grow up to be head of the PTA, or the City Council.
Not that to grow up to do that is in any way a poor choice... but that there could be a kind of emphasis that might let less regimented types feeling inadequate, or more (whatever) types to skip past that.

My neighbors, in some years, young girls in the fifties, grew up to be presidents of this and that - their mother was.

I guess I see the Girl Scouts as a primer for that. But, I don't see it as the route to happiness for all, at all.... and rather resent that this should be such a big question in 2007.

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Quote:

Its my impression that American religious groups are using the scouting movement to further their own agenda.

mormon scoutleaders in particular. i entered the thread seeing an opportunity to use a quip like "don't you really mean cub-scouts and homophobia?" - imagine my surprise when it was actually about prayer! now if only churches could learn from this, we might have religion in the united states.

if you're uncomfortable with your children praying, i have no idea what to tell you.

if they are uncomfortable with praying, that's another story. i don't think they should have to if they don't want to. pointless- what good is a prayer that doesn't come from a desire to connect with god? if they are uncomfortable praying with cub scouts, they're probably going to be pressured into it anyway. you can always take them out of it if they don't like cub scouts anymore.

another thing you could have them do is demonstrate a number of different religious ceremonies. they don't have to be complete- they don't have to involve prayer or recitation. you could instead have them show how muslims kneel facing the east, how jews say kiddush with a cup of wine (or grape juice) before a shabbos meal, how christians put their hands together (and what the symbolism of that might be) and show other traditions of prayer without actually saying one.

that should go over real well with the fundamentalists running the scouts these days. you can give them a "dealing with closeminded people" badge you make yourself.

i'm half-serious, and i must be half-kidding as well, looking over the advice i've given. i hope at least it will give you some ideas you can actually try out, or that it will help you with your decision(s).

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

jake123 wrote:

I have twin boys-8 in Cub Scouts. They are at the rank of Bear Cub. The very first requirement for them is "Ways we worship."

Part of the requirement is to practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, etc.

Over the past few years, I have turned more and more away from the church. I have become agnostic and I don't really have any desire to take them to church to show them how we [/I]used to worship.

I am not sure how to approach this. I have stepped down as Assistant Cubmaster, in part, because I didn't think I could be the kind of leader the kids needed or the Scouts would want. My lifestyle and attitudes do not really fit. There is more to my leaving that post than just religion, but this particular topic is one I need to deal with.

Scouting has been wonderful for my boys and our family. We've done many things we wouldn't have if they were not in Scouts. I keep hoping the Scouts will help me teach my boys about honor and integrity, and maybe learn something about that myself. I have not been the most shining example of those things.

Are there any other Scout parents out there with a similar situation?

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there? Shocked

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

baddog1 wrote:

Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

Well ...
I will do my duty to God and the King
... only a few will complain about King George.

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Quote:

Practice. Practice your faith as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or religious fellowship.

This is the part of the requirement that set this all off for me in the first place.

I put this out there because I am in a state of doubt and I didn't want to take my kids to church and say, "This is how we worship.", when that is not truly the case. There is also the "emblems of faith" requirement.

Quote:

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

I am not complaining that god is in the mix. My issue is with the fact that there is no allowance for those who are agnostic or atheist. I would even be okay if the requirement were to go to a religious service to see how people worship. The requirement makes the out-dated assumption that all people belong to an organized religion.

Many families are not part of any organized religion and these requirements are exlusionary. I don't want to just fake something so my boys can move up in rank. That goes against the idea of integrity that the scouts are trying to instill in the boys.

Scouting has been a wonderful experience for me and my boys. They love it and I love the time I get to spend with them because of it. I want to teach them about god and religion without indoctrinating them into any specific faith. That way, they can find their own path to spirituality with a choice.

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Enter the proselytizing Unitarian...

Two points --

First, the requirement to Practice can be met by in-home practice of your faith. There are faiths which encourage and promote skepticism of the too-easy answer and a personal search for truth and meaning. That search can be accomplished entirely inside one's home. Worship has the same root meaning as 'worthy', or giving honor to that with has meaning and importance. YOU can define for yourself what those things are and you can help your sons define them for themselves. Buddhist, Hindu, Unitarian, and agnostic children are not precluded from worship if they don't attend a "Place of Worship" outside the home. If your current position is one of skepticism of the existence of your previous understanding of God then spend energies on worshiping those things that have meaning to you (family, environment, etc). Spending time with your sons in pursuit of a shared mission to make a difference in the world in whatever manner you choose to do so can be a form of worship, as can spending time in personal meditation and soul-searching.

Second -- emblems of faith

The Unitarian Universalist Association has a handbook for completing a self-search faith identity exercise. It can be completed within the home and the patch or emblem can be awarded during a UU service or awarded at home by the parents. UU churches and fellowships are full of 'practicing' agnostics, believers, and skeptics. There are many more who spend their time in private pursuits without ever attending a service. We embrace a life of searching and service to others.

It's interesting that while the UUA has a long standing battle (and law suit) against the BSA for it's anti-gay discrimination practices it also has a program that meets the requirements for earning the religion badge for youth. I've seen many youth receive the religion badge during ceremonies and I know of others who have done so privately. There's no reason that skepticism and personal search should preclude your sons from accomplishing this goal.

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

baddog1 wrote:

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better? Shocked

T
K
O

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

Diest TKO wrote:

baddog1 wrote:

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better?

T
K
O

You should stop trying to prove a negative. If you feel strongly that this would be the case - then start an organization and exclude God. I'm speaking from the best evidence available (historical knowledge of the BSA) and you've switched gears to supposition. Another emotion-based response from you. :wink:

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Re: Cub Scouts and religion

baddog1 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
baddog1 wrote:

It's amazing to me that so many rave about how great the Boy Scout Organization is for young men - then complain because God is included in the mix. Did you ever stop & think that there might be a connection there?

Have you ever stoped to think that the god element may be preventing the scouts from being even better?

T
K
O

You should stop trying to prove a negative. If you feel strongly that this would be the case - then start an organization and exclude God. I'm speaking from the best evidence available (historical knowledge of the BSA) and you've switched gears to supposition. Another emotion-based response from you. :wink:

Everything in that last post was false. I'm not trying to prove a negitive. It's called optimization. Please identify the emotional responce I made.

T
K
O

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