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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:04 am
I'd love to hear RL's lecture on imaginary numbers.

T
K
O
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:13 am
In responding to Ros pointing out that he is the one who keeps changing the subject of the thread--which is proof for creationism--the member "real life" wrote:

Quote:
I think that showing the universe cannot have originated thru natural processes is a pretty good start, don't you?


Apart from being typical fuzzy-headed tripe which hopes to play games about the definition of "natural," a variety of arguing what the meaning of is is--this represents a candor for which this joker should kick himself, if he weren't so snotty and arrogant.

This sort of thinking is at the heart of the rather dull-witted, and therefore remarkably successful tactic of the religious bullshit artist. The argument runs basically, if science can be discredited, the imaginary friend superstition wins by default. This, of course, assumes a truly idiotic dualism, to the effect that there can only be two explanations for cosmic origins, and that if science fails to explain cosmic origins to the satisfaction of the scientifically ignorant and illiterate, Jeebus wins!

So, no, "real life," it's not a good start, it's no start at all. It is changing the subject, and it will never provide a scintilla of proof for creationism.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 08:25 am
DEIST
Quote:
I'd love to hear RL's lecture on imaginary numbers.
Very Happy Very Happy precious, funny too.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 12:13 pm
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
I think that showing the universe cannot have originated thru natural processes is a pretty good start, don't you?


Apart from being typical fuzzy-headed tripe which hopes to play games about the definition of "natural," a variety of arguing what the meaning of is is--this represents a candor for which this joker should kick himself, if he weren't so snotty and arrogant.


You forgot to mention that RL didn't really show that the Universe couldn't have originated through natural processes. He merely speculated and I provided a perfect counter-speculation using what we know about physics.

Turns out I was wrong, based on a misunderstanding of what actually breaks down near a singularity. That, of course, was irrelevant. I showed that RL's statements regarding the Creation of the Universe were bullshit.

My attempt at using the Second Law of Thermodynamics and the singularity concept, was to pre-empt any attempts at RL to invoke the First Law of Thermodynamics to say that the Universe could not have come out of nothing. Turns out, all I could have said was that the Laws of Thermodynamics belong to Classical Physics, which tends to break down when you move into the realms of Relativity, upon which the Big Bang Theory is built and when you move into the realms of Quantum Mechanics, which would apply to any singularity if they do exist.

Upon losing the physics argument, RL has now resorted to discrediting something he knows next to nothing about. Seems familiar. I mean, it's exactly what RL did when I talked about what Darwin said about species in response to his Darwin was racist ad hominem attack. That was a long time ago.

I suppose some things don't change, even when they should.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 02:06 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
....Quantum Mechanics, which would apply to any singularity if they do exist........


And you know this to be true how?

Since you know not the composition, nor the origin, nor the properties of a hypothetical 'singularity', it is purely speculation for you to say 'this principle would apply to it, but that one would not'.

And that has been my point all along.

I've lost no argument because you've put forth no argument beyond your opinion.

You want to have it both ways, stating that various scientific principles would or would not apply , as it becomes convenient to do so.

But with no evidentiary basis for such claims, all you are spouting is opinion.

Now if you have evidence to show what your 'singularity' was composed of, and what properties , etc............

............THEN we'll have something to talk about.

Evidence. Remember? That thing scientific types say they rely on.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 03:06 pm
real life wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
....Quantum Mechanics, which would apply to any singularity if they do exist........


And you know this to be true how?

And you know the Earth was created in 6 days, less than 10k years ago how?

Wilso didn't ask for proof of the BB, or proof of QED, or proof of singularities. Pointing out unknown aspects of other theories doesn't do anything to support creationism.

At least BadDog made an attempt at offering evidence by claiming that his love for his child and the beauty of a sunset were proof of creationism (or creator) despite the fact that those things do not constitute the type of proof or evidence Wilso (or anyone) would accept.

You on the other hand can't even offer a subjective stab at evidence. Your stubborn refusal to even address the proper point pretty much shouts "we have no evidence! we need no proof!". So why don't you just admit it. It's a valid answer you know, you have a right to believe whatever you want without any proof whatsoever. As a matter of fact, your whole belief system (christianity) is predicated on faith, so why you run from faith so fearfully is more than a bit odd.

If we didn't know better we might think that you desperately desire some form of scientific validation to support your world view. But of course, any level of validation would undermine the very basis of faith. It's a very odd path you're on.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 04:26 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
....Quantum Mechanics, which would apply to any singularity if they do exist........


And you know this to be true how?

And you know the Earth was created in 6 days, less than 10k years ago how?

Wilso didn't ask for proof of the BB, or proof of QED, or proof of singularities. Pointing out unknown aspects of other theories doesn't do anything to support creationism.

At least BadDog made an attempt at offering evidence by claiming that his love for his child and the beauty of a sunset were proof of creationism (or creator) despite the fact that those things do not constitute the type of proof or evidence Wilso (or anyone) would accept.

You on the other hand can't even offer a subjective stab at evidence. Your stubborn refusal to even address the proper point pretty much shouts "we have no evidence! we need no proof!". So why don't you just admit it. It's a valid answer you know, you have a right to believe whatever you want without any proof whatsoever. As a matter of fact, your whole belief system (christianity) is predicated on faith, so why you run from faith so fearfully is more than a bit odd.

If we didn't know better we might think that you desperately desire some form of scientific validation to support your world view. But of course, any level of validation would undermine the very basis of faith. It's a very odd path you're on.


You're arguing in a circle , ros. 'I've got evidence and you've only got faith , but you shouldn't point out that I haven't got evidence because that shows you have no faith.' Laughing

Wolf asserted that QM would apply to a singularity.

Please pardon me if I responded somewhat skeptically. I haven't the great faith that you have. You may accept his statement at face value. I see it as contradicting his earlier position that a 'singularity' is of unknown composition, unknown properties, unknown origin, etc

So how he asserts certainty of an unknown is what I challenged. Sorry I'm such a doubter. Cool
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2008 06:16 pm
Credit where it is due, this gobshite continues to avoid the burden of the thread, and to distract the discussion from his failure to provide any proof for creationism.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 05:39 am
real life wrote:
You're arguing in a circle , ros. 'I've got evidence and you've only got faith , but you shouldn't point out that I haven't got evidence because that shows you have no faith.' Laughing

Wolf asserted that QM would apply to a singularity.

Please pardon me if I responded somewhat skeptically. I haven't the great faith that you have. You may accept his statement at face value.


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7500/strawmanposterjd5.jpg
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 06:14 am
So , set me straight then ros.

Which scientific principles/laws apply to a 'singularity' , and which ones don't?

And how do YOU know this to be true?

If I am to drop creationism and accept BB as gospel, what is the evidentiary basis for asserting which principles apply and which ones don't?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 06:37 am
real life wrote:
So , set me straight then ros.

Ok, I'll set you straight, the subject of the thread is proof of creationism, do you have any or not. It's not a hard question.

Nobody asked you to believe the BB or anything else. We simply want to know what evidence you have for your own beliefs.

By the way, you've still got hay stuck in your hair. Smile
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 07:33 am
What you are asking is for me to exchange belief in ONE entity of unknown composition, unknown origin, unknown properties (God) that caused the universe (time/space , all matter/energy, scientific laws) to come into being.........

..........for belief in ANOTHER entity of unknown composition, unknown origin, unknown properties (a singularity) that caused the universe (time/space , all matter/energy, scientific laws) to come into being.

You say the reason I should do so is because you have evidence and I don't.

I think it is fair to compare and contrast these two views, pointing out that BOTH are essentially supernatural explanations of the origin of the universe.

You do not think it fair, because it embarrasses you to admit that your view is just as faith-based as mine.

You have continually claimed to have an evidence-based POV, although you can't seem to present any evidence for the singularity of BB lore.

I know my POV is a supernatural one , and I'm quite comfortable with the consistency of my view.

You can't seem to recognize that yours is a supernatural view too. The inconsistency of your view seems to trouble you greatly. And it should.

btw do you know the difference between hay and straw?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 08:01 am
real life wrote:
What you are asking is for me to exchange belief in ONE entity ..........for belief in ANOTHER

No we're not.

We're asking for proof/evidence of creationism. Nothing more.

But it's pretty clear that you don't have any. So never mind.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 08:05 am
When you can refute the math for string theory, let us know rl.


But lets take something a little simpler.
You claim mass can not be created or destroyed

In the theory of relativity as an object approaches the speed of light its mass increases. Since mass can not be created or destroyed where does the increase in mass come from real life? Since mass can't be created wouldn't your argument be that the theory of relativity is not science?

I look forward to your explanaton of how the theory of relativity doesn't work.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 08:33 am
parados wrote:
When you can refute the math for string theory, let us know rl.

Challenging RL with String Theory probably isn't a good idea because
String Theory sucks.

Not that that gives any credibility to creationism or anything... just saying.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 12:23 pm
real life wrote:
If I am to drop creationism and accept BB as gospel, what is the evidentiary basis for asserting which principles apply and which ones don't?


No one here is asking you to "drop" anything, nor to accept anything else. No one here, i suspect, gives a rat's ass what you believe. Wilso started a thread, addressed to creationists in general, not to you specifically, which asked for proof of creationism (or more particularly, denied that there is any). If was your choice to post in this thread. But you don't provide even the most feeble evidence for creationism, you just drag in scientific concepts, which you obviously do not well understand, and attempt to suggest that in discrediting those concepts (something at which you consistently fail) you will have authorized your goofy imaginary friend thesis.

Not only are you ignorant, you are narrow-minded and dualistic. It's not an either/or choice between a putative "big bang" and your imaginary friend poofism in this thread, and even were you to succeed in demonstrating that a "big bang" were not logically possible (something you have failed to do), that wouldn't constitute evidence that your imaginary friend poofed the cosmos and everything in it into existence.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 12:48 pm
real life wrote:
And you know this to be true how?


If the GR is right about singularities, then the singularity is so small that it is on a quantum scale, RL.

Quote:
Since you know not the composition, nor the origin, nor the properties of a hypothetical 'singularity', it is purely speculation for you to say 'this principle would apply to it, but that one would not'.


You don't need to know the composition of a singularity to know that quantum mechanics would apply to a singularity. The singularity is by definition an infinitely small object. This puts it in the realm of quantum mechanics, which talks about the insanely small.

I state what can and cannot apply based on what physicists find out.

You, however, state what can or cannot apply based merely on your own whim. Not to mention that you're so keen on us providing evidence but not keen at all on providing evidence of your own. Instead you argue on mere semantics, which is the modus operandi of a bankrupt intelligence.

Your definition of supernatural (i.e. anything that we don't know) is a sign of such bankrupt intelligence.

The biggest difference between our point of view, compared to yours, is that scientists are actually working on disproving these viewpoints. Therein lies the difference between real scientists and Creation scientists. Real scientists come up with theories, then go out to try and disprove their theories. If they fail, if the evidence shores up their theory, then it is taken as one more step to proving that their theory is correct.

Compare this with Creation scientists, who do no real research of their own. They don't go out to find a God particle. They don't go out of their way to do any research. They merely look at other people's work and then twist the meaning out of context. They point at gaps in our knowledge and say, "Ah God did it!" Just like you do.

Except, hm, they don't care for the fact that scientists are at the moment, working to fill those gaps in with credible scientific explanations. No! What matters is that there's a gap in our knowledge, in which to fit your precious delusion.

Sooner or later, the people at the South Pole or at the Large Hadron Collider with come up with evidence for String Theory or against it. When that happens, string theory is vindicated or abandoned, and I will be the first to abandon it when it is proved wrong.

That is the difference between our viewpoint and yours. Nothing will make you change your mind about your viewpoint, because it is not testable and not falsifiable. You will always be able to shift your goalposts.

String theory cannot have its goalposts shifted. Its statements are quite clear (although, as a biochemist, I have no idea what those statements are). Prove them wrong and string theory breaks. That is the difference between the supernatural and the natural. The supernatural can never be falsified. The natural can.

You don't get it, do you?

We've said time and time before. We've done it for the past 182 pages! There is evidence for our position, our position makes testable predictions, which are falsifiable. Your position, does not. That is why our position is scientific and yours isn't. That is why ours is better and yours isn't. Because yours is a tautology with goalposts that can be shifted as you see fit.

In the early days, God was in the sky. Then he was shifted to the Heavens, just beyond the Solar System. Then he was shifted further out of our reach. Every time science advanced, your God was shifted further and further away. You and your kind kept moving the goalposts.

So go on, move those goalposts, RL. Stubbornly dodge the question and argue semantics. And furthermore, ignore the context in which we talk about things so you can attack a strawman. You've done it countless times before, like earlier on when I talked about what Darwin said about species and variations and how species were merely variations with the intermediate variations wiped out.
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Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 01:31 pm
Hello peoples. I hear you have a creationist problem. Don't worry, I'm from the internet.

real life wrote:
What you are asking is for me to exchange belief in ONE entity of unknown composition, unknown origin, unknown properties (God) that caused the universe (time/space , all matter/energy, scientific laws) to come into being.........

..........for belief in ANOTHER entity of unknown composition, unknown origin, unknown properties (a singularity) that caused the universe (time/space , all matter/energy, scientific laws) to come into being.


That's patently false, given what I've read. The most reasonable answer to what 'started' the universe is: "I don't know". Scientists use, you know, evidence and predictive models to test what happened in the distant past, however there is still the philosophical problem of causality, etc. God is not a replacement for those predictive models, nor is God anything other than a replacement of ignorance here. Where does the universe come from? God? Might as well just say, "I don't know."

It seems what is requested of you is evidence for creationism. You're not doing very well on that task.

real life wrote:
[various accusations]
You do not think it fair, because it embarrasses you to admit that your view is just as faith-based as mine.


Actually, you have merely attempted to shift the burden of proof and taken their ideas to the unnecessary extreme. There is nothing about the Big Bang that explains *absolute* origins. It is an accurate model that predicts what happens immediately after the 'singularity' which is implied from the math. That's it. There is no faith there, only simple induction and making *accurate* predictions about the universe. Since it seems extremely common for creationists to twist around words, remember that this *does not* mean the singularity is absolutely necessary nor if it were would it answer the ultimate question.

As for everyone else, String Theory is awesome and you can ... (insert bad words here). Very Happy

String Theory is part of theoretical physics and as such is the 'creative' part of science. We have observations (lots of them) and want to see what underlying laws are. String theory is an attempt to have a single explanation for what we see at the quantum level, the macro level, and cosmological level. What it does not have right now is supported predictions, but that's where the Large Hadron Collider comes in. There are, in fact, predictions to be made concerning String Theory when it comes to the LHC. If those predictions are supported, String Theory just started to be scientific. Depending on how powerful those predictions are, it may eventually replace all kinds of other theories.

If it is not supported by the findings, String Theory will likely continue (as theoretical physics), as there are many ST models and not all of them necessarily imply what the LHC should find. In case 'real life' (ironic nick?) wants to jump on that, I've clearly delineated what is supported science and what is the more theoretical (small t) part of doing science.

For an analogy, Einstein's ideas were entirely theoretical (small t) before the implications of his ideas were tested. That doesn't mean special relativity wasn't part of doing science - these kinds of things are the powerhouse of science - but it does mean that they were unsupported by empirical tests and as such not considered validated. Note also that creationism is a far cry from theoretical physics, comparing the two is like comparing a set of broken roller skates to experimental rocket technology.

Finally, again you need evidence for your position, 'real life'.
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 02:14 pm
Shirakawasuna wrote:
Hello peoples. I hear you have a creationist problem. Don't worry, I'm from the internet.

That's patently false, given what I've read. The most reasonable answer to what 'started' the universe is: "I don't know".

Correct.

Shirakawasuna wrote:
Scientists use, you know, evidence and predictive models to test what happened in the distant past, however there is still the philosophical problem of causality, etc. God is not a replacement for those predictive models, nor is God anything other than a replacement of ignorance here.

Source? Proof of assertion?

Shirakawasuna wrote:
Where does the universe come from? God? Might as well just say, "I don't know."

Source? Proof of assertion?

Shirakawasuna wrote:
Actually, you have merely attempted to shift the burden of proof and taken their ideas to the unnecessary extreme.

No, actually RL has shown that there are other considerations to the posed issue. It just so happens that the narrow-minded on this thread cry foul about those considerations they do not care for.

Shirakawasuna wrote:
There is nothing about the Big Bang that explains *absolute* origins. It is an accurate model that predicts what happens immediately after the 'singularity' which is implied from the math. That's it. There is no faith there, only simple induction and making *accurate* predictions about the universe.

Predictions w/o faith? Think about that statement for a moment. Rolling Eyes

Shirakawasuna wrote:
Since it seems extremely common for creationists to twist around words,...

Hypocritical.

Shirakawasuna wrote:
Finally, again you need evidence for your position, 'real life'.


Please provide your definition for 'evidence'.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 02:59 pm
Quote:
No, actually RL has shown that there are other considerations to the posed issue. It just so happens that the narrow-minded on this thread cry foul about those considerations they do not care for.


"NArrow mindedness" is where RL lives. He has one conclusion and his evidence is "cherry picked" to try to support it, to little success though.

Actually, RL had originally taken to misquoting, misapplying, and actually lying about real evidence with what he wanted to shove down our collective throats as "A different viewpoint" based upon incorect scientific assumptions. When RL came on board, he was trying to state that;

1the fossil record shows no evolution of forms.

2the Earth was covered by a Flood based upon lame evidence such as ocean sediments at tops of mountains.

3 Hes presented several of the packaged Creationist fony arguments against a natural world, all have been debunked quite easily. (such as his reliance upon the poor science of Steve Austen, Ken Ham,"Dr Dino" , and a few other "shamans of scientitainment" ( they believe in saddles on Triceratopsians)


His gradual morph into someone who is trying to transfer the burden of proof to others is something that he only adopted later when nobody was buying his altered reality crap.

Now he is trying his latest tack that since we cant come up with evidence for theoretical physics, the entire world of evidence for Earths development and the development of life is similarly in question.

Just want to keep a more accurate time line in play so that baddog isnt able to sway objective readers that he and RL actually have something here, worth listening to.

As he is fond of saying , nice try, no cigar.
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