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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 11:27 am
real life wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
the universe does not default to any truth


Including 'scientific truth'.

The empirical world view does not rely on any defaults. Especially when laws come into play. I'm not aware of any special distinction called "scientific truth."
real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I only need to evaluate their evidence through a scientific lense.



And miss most of the events of history, since there are relatively few things that can be 'scientifically proven'.

Perhaps the tools are currently lacking to be able to extract the evidence to close most cases, but with the world of mass media we currently live in, we find that more and more events are being documented in dynamics ways.

I may have difficult time proving an event happened, but I have evidence. The amount of evidence ranges from event to event, but still exists.

Provide evidence that biblical claims are true, or you can't even enter the race.
real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

I only need to illustrate that the magical element of the mythology does not exist.


I agreed and you immediately backed off this statement, claiming that your ability to backtrack in the later part of the post:

You can't cherry pick a quote from me and ask for a responce which could be found in the same post you picked it from.
real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
..........I don't have to actually do anything to disprove god.........


released you from the need to substantiate your view.

If you are going to maintain that the only tool you need is the scientific method, then you need to show that it can apply to all facts at all times. Your inability to 'scientifically prove' most ordinary events of life will prove a significant roadblock.

Can you 'scientifically prove' that your next door neighbor read the newspaper yesterday?

No I cant. I can however prove he didn't read my diary. I can prove he exists. I can even test him to prove he can read. The is plenty of evidence avalible if I wanted to make a theory on my neighbor's activity.

You can't provide proof of god to even begin entertaining claims of events which are predicated on the belief in god. Provide some observable evidence, or simply accept that the belief of biblical events relies on less credible evidence than the belief in scientific claims.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 11:28 am
Nobody has to disprove god.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 12:23 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
Nobody has to disprove god.

T
K
O


Well said! :wink:
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jan, 2008 12:26 pm
baddog1 wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Nobody has to disprove god.

T
K
O


Well said! :wink:


T
K
:wink:
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 09:13 am
Diest TKO wrote:
Provide some observable evidence, or simply accept that the belief of biblical events relies on less credible evidence than the belief in scientific claims.



You believe that matter/energy in our universe was created 'out of nothing' at a location 'outside' the universe.

Deist TKO wrote:
I predict that outside of the domain of our universe, by laws of nature yet to be discovered, energy in different forms can be created from nothing or potentially phased into existance

http://able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2974233#2974233

Any observable evidence of that?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2008 09:56 am
real life wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Provide some observable evidence, or simply accept that the belief of biblical events relies on less credible evidence than the belief in scientific claims.



You believe that matter/energy in our universe was created 'out of nothing' at a location 'outside' the universe.

Deist TKO wrote:
I predict that outside of the domain of our universe, by laws of nature yet to be discovered, energy in different forms can be created from nothing or potentially phased into existance

http://able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2974233#2974233

Any observable evidence of that?


Actually RL; the link you provided led to Deist's assertion:

"I predict that outside of the domain of our universe, by laws of nature yet to be discovered, energy in different forms can be created from nothing or potentially phased into existance. The potential for mulitple universes additionally exists, and the potential for one universe to exchange energy or mass with another universe is additionally plausible."

Isn't the core of Deist's description the basis for creationism?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 09:51 am
baddog1 wrote:
real life wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Provide some observable evidence, or simply accept that the belief of biblical events relies on less credible evidence than the belief in scientific claims.



You believe that matter/energy in our universe was created 'out of nothing' at a location 'outside' the universe.

Deist TKO wrote:
I predict that outside of the domain of our universe, by laws of nature yet to be discovered, energy in different forms can be created from nothing or potentially phased into existance

http://able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2974233#2974233

Any observable evidence of that?


Actually RL; the link you provided led to Deist's assertion:

"I predict that outside of the domain of our universe, by laws of nature yet to be discovered, energy in different forms can be created from nothing or potentially phased into existance. The potential for mulitple universes additionally exists, and the potential for one universe to exchange energy or mass with another universe is additionally plausible."

Isn't the core of Deist's description the basis for creationism?


Yes, it would seem that his position (since it lacks observable evidence) has all the makings of a statement of faith, not of a scientific position.

Christians have , for centuries, stated their belief that the world we live in was created from 'outside' the creation, by a process that was not part of the natural processes of our cosmos.

Deist TKO is not a Christian, but his core belief (as stated above) is consistent with Deism and is not inconsistent with the creation position of a Christian either.

He may be , for lack of a better term, a deistic evolutionist. I don't want to misstate his position, but this is just based on what he has said, as I understand it.

Surveys of scientists find that a fairly large percentage state that natural processes alone are NOT sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.

Many of them are theistic evolutionists, or in some cases they are deists, as Deist TKO seems to be. But they are not hyper-naturalists or atheists.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:09 am
Quote:

Surveys of scientists find that a fairly large percentage state that natural processes alone are NOT sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.


Its funny you have no trouble coming up with lies like this but have no ability to answer even basic science questions that I have asked you. Waiting since December fourth on the last batch you refused to answer. Good with labels, terrible with answers.


ROFLMAO!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:15 am
Nice try real life but we already know you disagree with Davies on this..

Quote:
Almost all scientists and philosophers accept the general principle that the prediction of unobservable entities is an acceptable scientifc hypothesis if those entities stem from a theory that has other testable consequences.



Since DTKO seems to be relying on a hypothesis that stems from other testable consequences he is NOT dealing with the supernatural.

By the way.. real life.. are you EVER going to actually tell us what "point" you agreed with Davies on? You agreed with him on half a sentence it seems but no point that I can yet see.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:16 am
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Quote:

Surveys of scientists find that a fairly large percentage state that natural processes alone are NOT sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.


Its funny you have no trouble coming up with lies like this...


"...lies like this"? Rolling Eyes

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/04/science/04edgehed.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:24 am
baddog1 wrote:
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Quote:

Surveys of scientists find that a fairly large percentage state that natural processes alone are NOT sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.


Its funny you have no trouble coming up with lies like this...


Lies? Rolling Eyes

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/04/science/04edgehed.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

That in no way supports the statement.
1. It is NOT a "survey of scientists" alone. It was a question posed of scientists, futurists and creative thinkers.
2. The responses listed do NOT show a majority even discussing natural process accounting for complex life let alone taking the stance you claim they did. I challenge you to find 2 in the list that make a statement even close to what was claimed as being a large percentage.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:24 am
Laughing If I was supposed to get something out of that link I sure can't figure out what it was!? Got any pictures of you digging that Ark out Yet?

ANYTHING to avoid answering questions. I guess my questions aren't EQUITABLE enough for you, huh?

ROFLMAO!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:32 am
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Quote:

Surveys of scientists find that a fairly large percentage state that natural processes alone are NOT sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.


lies like this
Laughing


Two of several surveys I had in mind are referenced in this article, which is posted on a pro-evolution site.

Quote:
Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution
by Larry Witham

While most US scientists think humans are simply smarter apes, at least 4 in 10 believe a creator "guided" evolution so that Homo sapiens are ruled by a soul or consciousness, a new survey shows. Scientists almost unanimously accept Darwinian evolution over millions of years as the source of human origins. But 40% of biologists, mathematicians, physicians, and astronomers include God in the process.
"I believe God could work through evolution," a South Carolina mathematician wrote in a marginal note on the survey "Bell shaped curves describe how characteristics are distributed.. . so I think that God uses what we perceive to be 'random processes.'" Despite such affirmations, however, 55% of scientists hold a naturalistic and atheistic position on the origins of man, according to the random survey of 1000 persons listed in the 1995 American Men and Women of Science.

"I am surprised to find that so many are theistic evolutionists" Duncan Porter, a Virginia Tech botanist and Darwin scholar, said in an interview. "As an Episcopalian, I don't compartmentalize those things," he said of God and evolution, "I put them together in an overall view." Rick Potts, director of human origins at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, said it is not unusual to find religious beliefs in any community including scientists.

But "I'm happy to see that 55% are taking a naturalistic approach," he said. "Most anthropologists would draw the line heavily toward the naturalistic side. We want to explain our phenomenon without recourse to things we can't observe or measure." The survey, which had a 60% response rate, asked scientists the same Gallup Poll question posed to the public in 1982 and 1991. In the 1991 round, 40 percent of Americans said God "guided" evolution to create humans.

While this 40% is a middle ground of agreement between scientists and the public, there is a sharp polarization between the groups taking purely naturalistic or biblical views. While most scientists are atheistic about human origins, nearly half of Americans adhere to the biblical view that God created humans "pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10 000 years." Forty-six percent of Americans agreed with this view of human origins in the 1991 Gallup poll. Only 5 percent of the scientists agreed.

Because only a quarter to a third of Americans are Protestant evangelicals or fundamentalists, the 1991 Gallup Poll showed that many mainline Protestants, Catholics and Jews believe in a "last 10,000 years human creation." The 1991 poll also showed that college-educated Americans were far more likely to accept evolution, underscoring their closer affinity to the views of scientists.

The standard view in science is that modern-day Homo sapiens emerged 40,000 years ago and began to organize societies 10,000 years ago. The oldest humanlike ape is called Australopithecus, or "southern ape." It was found in Africa and is believed to date back 4 million years. Homo erectus developed 1.8 million years ago. Neanderthals roamed Europe and Asia beginning 100,000 years ago.

The survey was a separate but parallel study to one reported in Nature (1997 Apr 3; 386:435-6) in which 40 percent of the same scientists reported a belief in a God who answers prayers and in immortality. Both surveys were conducted by a reporter for the Washington Times and Edward J Larson, a historian of science at the University of Georgia. The report in Nature was based on a replication of a 1916 survey that scandalized Americans by finding that 45 percent of scientists were atheists and 15 percent were agnostics. Before the 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species, scientists and the Western public agreed that God designed human life. Afterward, they became sharply divided.

The belief that God creates through evolution has been called "theistic evolution" though there are different views on how much God intervenes in the process. A physicist from New Mexico wrote on the survey that God created man "within the last 10,000 years, but the universe is billions of years old." Two biologists from Ohio refined the question about God and evolution. One said, "God created the universe and principles of energy and matter, which then guided subsequent evolution." The other said God did not guide the process "but did create the conditions that allowed the process to take place." "Creation science," most visible in school board debates and court rulings, is only one brand of creationism. It holds that the earth is about as young as human creation. But many Bible believers combine an ancient earth and some evolution with a recent human creation.



from http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol17/5319_many_scientists_see_god39s__12_30_1899.asp
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:50 am
Any proof of creationism yet? Still nothing? Not even one tiny scrap? Okay, just checking...
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 11:21 am
parados wrote:
...I challenge you to find 2 in the list that make a statement even close to what was claimed as being a large percentage...


And if produced - then what?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 11:23 am
kickycan wrote:
Any proof of creationism yet? Still nothing? Not even one tiny scrap? Okay, just checking...


Still waiting for that equitable definition of 'proof'. None provided yet? Okay, just checking...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 11:57 am
baddog1 wrote:
parados wrote:
...I challenge you to find 2 in the list that make a statement even close to what was claimed as being a large percentage...


And if produced - then what?


If produced saying what was claimed then it might well be a verified miracle.

We will have to wait for the Pope to rule on it before we can declare it such. :wink:
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 11:57 am
It would be interesting to see the actual survey. To judge its reliability, and allowing that in surveys those not responding (40%) are generally negative to the survey question...

I will say that assuming a good survey protocol (for the positive side) and that generally all non respondents would have polled against the question (for the negative side) that would still leave about 20% or so that would be positive to the question. I would still allow that percentage could be considered by some to be a "large" percentage.

So I would note that given the above, RL could believe that he was using reasonable data and so NOT be lying. I have said I have no problem in admitting when I am wrong, and in this case characterizing this piece of information by RL as lying was WRONG on my part. (Sorry!)

So changing the spin and having the statement read as in the article:

… percentage BELIEVE (rather than STATE) that natural processes alone are not sufficient to account for the universe as we see it and for the complex life forms that we see all around us.

would be a proper characterization of the article.


Since I retracted my statement I do want to be clear:

1) I believe things too but can't/wouldn't defend them as supported by science.

2) I doubt most (any?) of the survey respondents would say that they could defend their beliefs using science.

3) I would like to get an answer to my questions now.

4) For an idea of what might be EQUITABLE to B.D. see my posts here: http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3023244#3023244
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 12:22 pm
The question asked was the same one asked in the gallup poll.
Gallup question reads as follows:

Quote:
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings -- [ROTATE 1-3/3-1: 1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, 2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process, 3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so]?


The conclusions drawn seem to be far afield from the actual question asked.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 01:04 pm
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
4) For an idea of what might be EQUITABLE to B.D. see my posts here: http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3023244#3023244


No definition there - just more emotion-based claptrap.
0 Replies
 
 

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