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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 12:35 pm
neologist wrote:
To me, the word theory implies that competing explanations deserve mention or consideration.


In science, an explanation becomes a theory only if it is well-supported by evidence. Evolution is supported by a massive amount of evidence. Do any "competing explanations" have evidence to support them?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 12:44 pm
Setanta wrote:
Wallace and Darwin hypothesized that the diversity of life was a product of descent with modification by natural selection from common ancestors, on the basis of morphology. Since that time, chemistry and genetic biology have produced the same evidence of descent with modification by natural selection from common ancestors. That makes it a theory, not an hypothesis [...]

It doesn't just make it a theory, it makes it a refutable, tested, and confirmed theory. Before DNA sequencing, there was no reason at all to expect that DNA evidence on evolution should accord with morphological and geographical evidence on evolution -- unless Darwin, Wallace, and their theory were right. The theory of evolution, then, received a tough test from DNA sequencing. And it passed the test with flying colors.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:18 pm
Thomas wrote:
real life wrote:
Will the samples be tested for C14?

No, because the half-life of C14 (about 5700 years) makes it the wrong isotope for dating a 65 million year old fossil. They would use other substances for radiometric dating. But if you substitute the "C14" in your question with whatever substances have a half life of tens of million years, how do you know they haven't been tested already?

real life wrote:
Don't hold your breath.

Why not?


'We don't have to test to see if it's recent , because we KNOW it's not.'

Laughing
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:21 pm
real life wrote:


A pool of non-living chemicals has no mechanism to regulate and harness energy to produce extraordinarily complex molecules that carry information and the ability to replicate themselves.
An interesting argument after you have been telling us that Shapiro is correct. Do you now think Shapiro was incorrect?

Can energy create molecules that replicate themselves? Yes or no? If no then why do you quote Shapiro as a source to support your argument?
Quote:

Just adding energy alone will not overcome entropy and allow living things to generate themselves from dead chemicals.

Sorry. It won't happen.

I see you failed to address more complex atoms being made in an explosion. Tell us again how explosions can only make things that are LESS complex and explain how helium is not as complex as hydrogen.

You also failed to address how life can exist without energy.

You spout stuff you read on creationist websites with no understanding of their argument let alone the science they are trying to dispute.

So let's recap.
You can't explain how the 2nd law of thermodynamics works.
You can't explain the math in the 2nd law.
You claim anyone that uses the mathematical equation of the 2nd law is not using it correctly. (Energy transfer is one of the 2 variable used to show the entropy and you demand we not include energy transfer in talking about evolution and the 2nd law.)
You claim evolution violates the 2nd law but when shown a math proof that shows you are wrong you can't point to any errors in that math.
You claim nothing more complex can come from energy transfer yet you cite an author that claims the opposite to support your position.
You claim an explosion can never create anything more complex but when shown that a hydrogen fusion reaction creates helium you can't explain why helium is less complex than hydrogen.

You make a lot of claims that don't show any common sense at all let alone any understanding of basic science.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:31 pm
parados wrote:
real life wrote:


A pool of non-living chemicals has no mechanism to regulate and harness energy to produce extraordinarily complex molecules that carry information and the ability to replicate themselves.
An interesting argument after you have been telling us that Shapiro is correct. Do you now think Shapiro was incorrect?


Shapiro's contention was that an RNA/xNA molecule could not have produced itself, but he believed that a proto-cell with a rudimentary cell wall and active metabolism could.

Obviously I don't agree with everything he said.

You need to be more specific and reference which parts of his article you are referring to .

It would help if you read it first. A few days ago I made a plain reference to a quotation from a Nobel prize winner from the article only to have you ask 'where was that? I never saw it.'
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:34 pm
Setanta wrote:
I have not, nor has Ros suggested that "real life" is clever in a forensic sense. It is the same as one sees with politicians who will never give a direct and unequivocal answer to a direct and unequivocal question. The "cleverness" which is involved in what "real life" is doing is that it is intended to make an impression on those who are uninterested in or incapable of seeing the logical flaws in his presentation. He is interested in coming up with plausible "common sense" arguments which will appeal to those who are not able or not interested in following the details of the debate. He is satisfied with the thought that those who are uncertain or who are seeking confirmation for the theistic world view will have latched on to what seems a plausible argument. He doesn't care what those who argue logically, and who provide mathematical proofs and verifiable evidence have to say--he is only interested in the appearance of the course of the debate, not the actual balance of arguments.

The member "real life" will be happy if he can instill doubt in the uncertain reader, or re-affirm the prejudices in those who wish to believe a scriptural interpretation. He doesn't give a rat's ass what you believe, or whether or not you are able to score off him in debate. He knows you can score, and that he can obscure that with a smoke screen of derision based on his false allegations of "common sense" arguments against a theory of evolution.

Note, for example, what Ros has pointed out. In a thread entitle "Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism," the member "real life" has completely avoided any discussion of proofs for his scriptural bullshit. The most you'll ever get out of him is a claim that the proof for creationism is the same as the proof for evolution, and he will neither elaborate on the contention, nor logically argue the position.

In a sense, he wins with all those who lack the critical view necessary to see through his smoke screen.

Well said, and this is the reason I think these debates are valuable. I don't debate RL because I think he will change his mind, he isn't listening. I don't debate because evolution needs to be proven, it already has been. I debate because I'm interested in the challenge of improving the way science information is presented to non-scientific audiences.

And despite the irrationality of RL's arguments, they have a glib sound to them which is intuitively attractive to lay people.

I think in many cases science can do a better job of answering creationist challenges with a similar level of brevity and clarity. But it's going to take some creative use of examples to communicate otherwise complex ideas.

The next time some bible-thumper on a couch sneers, "evolution has as much chance of building mouse, as a tornado in a junk yard has of building a 747", what are you going to say? In most social situations, given a random sampling of the population, that statement is going to ring true to a majority of the people sitting around the couch. And yet it's total bullshit. How are you going to win that crowd back without people tuning out because you turn into a Poindexter at a party.

All of us who understand evolution can answer the question. But who can answer it best, and win the crowd back? That's the challenge.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:52 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Oh, by they way, I hate to ignore your smoke screen or anything, but when are you going to give us an example of evidence for creationism?


Well, before the thread was derailed we had talked some about dinos and man co-existing.

I think the soft tissue that has been discovered in the bones of numerous dinos is quite interesting , don't you?

Sure it's interesting, but not because it's any indication that dino's and man coexisted. It's interesting because fossilization can occur such that tissues of this type are retained.

We already know that the bones are over 65million years old. That's not in question because they were buried in rock strata which was at least that old (unless you think the T-Rex down to pre-cretaceous layers before expiring). The interesting part is how the 'soft' tissues were chemically preserved.

real life wrote:
How is it that 65,000,000 year old tissue is still in this condition?

Good question. They are working on it. I believe there are already several viable theories, none of which require the bones to be of more recent origin.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 01:58 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Once a replicative biology is started the obvious mechanism is Natural Selection.


I know that at one time you leaned heavily toward an RNA/xNA start for life.

No. I don't know enough about the subject of origins to take much of a stance on that, so I wouldn't have leaned toward any particular theory.

Although I do know enough not to assume any type of xNA starting point. I know it has to be something less complex that that.

real life wrote:
I posted the article by Shapiro that indicated the replicator isn't gonna produce itself.

Do you disagree, or are you now a 'metabolism first' proponent as he is?

I don't have a detailed opinion on which theory I like best yet. I only know that there must have been a transition point from chemical reactions to some form of rudimentary replication before Natural Selection could have begun. Years ago I heard something about Clays and lipids that I liked, but I don't remember much about it.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:02 pm
real life wrote:
Am I 'biased' because I say so?

No, you're biased because you have a preconceived idea for how things should turn out. Instead of starting with the evidence and building theories to account for it, you try to warp meaning and evidence to match your preconceived ideas. That's a bias.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:12 pm
ROS:

My reply would be: to those people you are speaking about he has, in my opinion, already won. He has kept many of you at this for seemingly YEARS. If I don't know any better I see you say his stuff isn't science but the people that run the web site don't move his posts from the science forum if he puts them there so THEY must think he is talking science too.

If I didn't know any better I'd wonder why, if he is so incredibly out in left field you keep up the conversation with himÂ…hmmmm... MUST be something in what he says or why would these people not simply ignore him??? Science must have something to hide. If he said 2+2 = 5 would these guys refute him over a thousand posts? No, they would just ignore him as a crank and move on.

In my opinion if he is, as you say, never going to come around to accepting rational explanations then you are just stroking his ego every time you reply.

Why not do an experiment, let him post for a week and have NO ONE respond at all. It would be no fun for him and I'd bet his number of posts would diminish rapidly.

As for coming up with better ways of countering his arguments to persuade those who don't know any better that he is wrong, I haven't seen ONE person that you've accomplished that with over these many posts. Perhaps I've missed something. I even gave you a post of gunga's to try your idea on but you said it doesn't work on his type of posts, yet I for one, don't see how you differentiate one load of total B.S. with another. And, frankly I haven't seen you do it with any of RL's posts either.

It seems I'm in the minority here but it's what I think.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:14 pm
real life wrote:
Thomas wrote:
real life wrote:
I think the soft tissue that has been discovered in the bones of numerous dinos is quite interesting , don't you? How is it that 65,000,000 year old tissue is still in this condition?

It is a fascinating find. I don't know how it is that tissue this old is still in a good condition. But as long as radiometric dating measures it to be that old, it doesn't challenge the current story of dinosaur evolution. It only challenges the current story of dinosaur fossilization.


I think it raises a huge question regarding dating methods.

Yes, but you think everything regarding dating methods is a question.

You think the earth is less than 10,000 years old, so basically you doubt everything in science. Why should we be surprised that you think it raises questions regarding dating methods. Why should we be impressed when you are surprised by anything. Everything must surprise you. The entire geology of the earth is an open book on deep time. The gold in your wedding ring is made of atoms which could only be formed in exploding stars. Antiquity is graven into everything around us.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:21 pm
neologist wrote:
Nevertheless, the standard of proof claimed by those elevating evolution from hypothesis to theory is nowhere near as stringent as the standards of laboratory science.

Yes it is. Good god, where do people come up with this stuff.

Evolution by means of natural selection is probably the number one, most respected, important, well documented, demonstrated and proven theories in science. It's a scientific fact, at least as much as relativity, quantum mechanics and plate tectonics.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:23 pm
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
As usual, changing the subject to the Flood is a dodge.


It is hilarious to see you complain about anyone else "dodging."

I know. He complained about Strawmen earlier too. What a joke that was. Smile
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:26 pm
real life wrote:
The water presently on the earth is sufficient to cover the landmass.

This is a stupid statement. Of course it is.

If all the land mass were to be completely flattened and evenly spread over the globe, then obviously the lighter substance would be on top (water). And then the atmosphere would cover that.

The problem is that the land masses were never flattened enough and evenly distributed enough for the water on the planet to cover everything.

And why are you even talking about this again?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:38 pm
real life wrote:
'We don't have to test to see if it's recent , because we KNOW it's not.'

Says who? Says you -- because you know, even without having read the paper, that this is how biologists think, and that they cannot have dated the fossil radiometrically.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:42 pm
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
As for coming up with better ways of countering his arguments to persuade those who don't know any better that he is wrong, I haven't seen ONE person that you've accomplished that with over these many posts.

ThunderRunner. He changed his views and left the forums with a fresh outlook on life and as a happier person (from what we could tell from his final posts).

As for you, if you don't enjoy the debate, then don't debate. I hope you will remain because I like your posts, but don't stay if you aren't enjoying it. There's really no other reason to be here.

There is only one person on these forums I ignore. He is a distasteful troll whos posts are nothing more than self serving trash. Everyone else seems to have something to offer, no matter how much I may disagree with them.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:09 pm
real life wrote:
'We don't have to test to see if it's recent , because we KNOW it's not.'

It is just now that I'm noticing you may be attempting to paraphrase me. If so, your sentence is incomplete. It has to be: "If a fossil has been dated with various long-lived radioisotopes, and if these independent datings consistently point to an age of 65 millions, then we don't have to test to see if it's recent, because we know it's not."
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:37 pm
ROS
Then I stand corrected.

And I won't be having any more interactions with RI.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:24 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
neologist wrote:
Nevertheless, the standard of proof claimed by those elevating evolution from hypothesis to theory is nowhere near as stringent as the standards of laboratory science.

Yes it is. Good god, where do people come up with this stuff.

Evolution by means of natural selection is probably the number one, most respected, important, well documented, demonstrated and proven theories in science. It's a scientific fact, at least as much as relativity, quantum mechanics and plate tectonics.
All sciences deal with correlations of less tha 1.0. What is acceptable in experiments having to do with evolution, particularly speciation?

Scientific method demands testing under controlled conditions. What tests have been done for the hypothesis of evolution? Explain the statistical relevance of the results. How may these tests be replicated?

You know, of course, I make no such claims for the assertion of creation or intelligent design. And I am certainly not about to discount what has been discovered about natural selection and adaptation. All I am saying is that it is impossible to make the same claims for evolution as for f=ma. Heck, even f=ma has exceptions. I never cease to be amazed at the absolute certainty claimed by some in the scientific community.

Present company excepted, of course.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 07:43 pm
neologist,

Rosborne and others have explained the scientific method which tests evolutionary theory. It is based on evidence that is already available (the fossil record). If you are looking for lab results - microbiologists have studied the evolution of viruses. There is also the genome study.
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