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A proposal for education reform in the US

 
 
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 11:15 am
Dear A2K'ers,

I have a proposal for fundamentally improving the education system in the United States, which I'm submitting here for your consideration. The argument for this proposal is fairly long winded, so please bear with me.

Introduction:

Many of us would agree that the education system in the United States is not working, or at least not working as efficiently as we would like it to. The original intent of the education system in the united states, perhaps the biggest single factor in its current success as a nation, was to give our young adults the education necessary to become a productive and valuable member of society (the society of the 1800's and early 1900's). In the original model, colleges were intended to provide specialized education for those who wanted to acquire skills in more complex areas of endeavor. Colleges were not a necessity for obtaining productive employment.

Today however, the model is broken. Not only does our public education system not strive to provide a level of education necessary to make our youth productive in our highly technical society, it also has the added difficulty of overcoming cultural problems which result in many young people actively resisting to education because the "brainiac/nerd" images don't help their social situation.

In this post, I will first try to identify the primary source of this resistance, and then propose a mechanism for changing it. I'm aware of the scope of what I'm trying to do here, and I'm certainly no genius, so please consider these suggestions as a work in progress, something which I'm hoping the creative minds on A2K can help build into a working model. As such, criticism is welcome, but try to make is constructive criticism which contains a counter proposal for improvement, rather than just a warning that all this can't be done. Thanks Smile

The result of whatever we can accomplish here (assuming we can come up with a model that is fundable) will not return benefits immediately because at least one generation of teenagers has to be exposed to the new cultural reward, but in the end, if it is effective, the results could re-invigorate our youth with the motivation and the desire to learn. And of all the problems educators face today, how many of those problems would not be solved by having a base of students (even the "cool" ones) who actually *want* to learn, and who actively seek their own education.

First let it be noted that not all students resist education, there are groups of kids in all types of communities who strive to excel, some even in the harshest of conditions. None the less, teachers biggest complaints, and the most time consuming portion of their days come from disciplining teenagers in their behavior, and from trying to entertain them, or enthrall them in some way with the material they are trying to pass on. All this effort from teachers comes from the need to overcome the students lack of active interest, and desire to learn the material.

The root of the problem:

Since motivation seems to be the core issue we have to ask ourselves what motivates teenagers. What is that they want? Adults don't work for free. Most of us don't pursue our careers for purely theoretical reasons. Some of us may enjoy our work, but we are motivated because we need to be productive in our society in order to maintain our value. And value is key. Value is worth money. Value makes your society want to protect you. Value gives you social acceptance, and often it gives you friends. And what do teenagers want more than anything, social acceptance and friends. Their motivations are not that different from ours. Unfortunately, in our current system, those motivations are disconnected from the benefits of education.

We need to find a way to re-connect education (and our youth) to the productivity of our society. In an agrarian society for example, the strength and energy of youth can benefit the family and the community around it. But in our high tech society, we have lost the benefits to society which come from the energy of youth, and in the process we have de-motivated many parents from interacting with their kids to assist this productivity. The issues of parental interaction (especially in low income environments) is closely related to motivation of youth, so if we can solve the parental motivation we can probably go a long way toward re-involving the kids.

Luckily, we already know how to motivate adults. Our culture runs on it, and it is a system with natural checks and balances, so it's self regulating: $Money$

How to change things:

We can't pay the kids directly, but we *can* pay the adults, and we can set up trust funds for kids.

Let's forget for a moment that schools already don't have enough money to pay for things, and first convince ourselves that this process would work to solve the problem. Then after we've agreed on that, we can try to figure out how to fund it.

So, let's use an extreme example to illustrate what would happen. Let's say we found some way to pay $100,000 for every passing grade a kid could make. That would sure as hell motivate a tremendous number of parents to work with their kids to make good grades, right? For that kind of money, even dead beat dads and drug addicts would take time to make sure their kid wasn't hanging out on street corners kicking cans instead of hitting the books. And kids from poor one parent families would be able to actually *help* their families survive and succeed. As a matter of fact, with this kind of money, the entire family activity would probably revolve around making the kid an educational success because it's the greatest income many families could make. Obviously this example is extreme, but I think it illustrates the point... we know what will change the core pattern of behavior, but we just don't know how to fund it yet.

Finding the functional threshold:

The next step to figuring out how to implement this is to locate the threshold where the dollars begin to be affordable, but don't yet lose that real-world bite they have for motivating things.

So, let's just start with big numbers and go down to see where the threshold is. And to make things simple for now, let's just forget about particular grades and classes and how many a student takes in a year and focus on how much money a particular student can earn for a family in a year.

Let's say it's $50,000 per student per year, does that still work? Almost certainly. How about $10,000? Yup, for most people, that's still a huge amount of money. How about $5000? Probably. $2000? Maybe. $100/year? Probably not. Some families might like a hundred bucks per year, but in the scheme of things, it's probably not sufficiently motivating to make any radical changes in behavior.

So, the threshold is probably somewhere between $2000-$5000/year per student. Unfortunately, that's still a lot of cash for schools already struggling to pay their teachers. So where do we get the money?

Finding the money:

Now we're back to motivation again. Who is motivated to fund something which we are reasonably sure will improve society and help our kids?

This one's easy: We are. We the parents, we the corporations, we the government, we the civilization. All benefit from this change.

Corporations are already complaining that there are not enough people to do the highly technical jobs, and the projections for the future are almost dire. Government is worried that skilled jobs will move over seas, and they probably will. So these entities should be strongly motivated to help fund this solution. And both corporation and government are able and willing to make investments, so this type of investment should be something they can calculate pretty easily. For corporations, having ten times more people that can do the skilled work means that each position costs them less. And for society, it means that more people will be making a nominal income rather than an exclusive slice which will earn most of the money.

Also, there's the improved efficiency of the educational systems themselves. Teachers will be less stressed by discipline problems which parents will begin dealing with again, and more qualified educators may begin to re-enter the system. Schools will save on broken equipment and students will police themselves to make the dollars. The entire system will be self regulating and self benefiting.

And what do we get in the end? A more educated population. People who make better choices in their lives, people who make educated choices in elections. How much is this worth?

The discussion:

Ok, I know that's a lot to digest, and I'm probably crazy for even making a stab at such a deeply rooted problem, but one never knows where the seeds of change will start, so it's worth proposing at least, just to see what everyone thinks.

So, what do you think, am I having delusions of grandeur thinking that we can make any difference on an issue as large as this, or is there some seed of potential here?

Thanks to everyone who has read this far and is taking the time to run this through their brain.

Best Regards, :-)
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 12:27 pm
Re: A proposal for education reform in the US
Hmmm.. There is a lot to digest here but let me throw these few comments out there...

rosborne979 wrote:
None the less, teachers biggest complaints, and the most time consuming portion of their days come from disciplining teenagers in their behavior, and from trying to entertain them, or enthrall them in some way with the material they are trying to pass on. All this effort from teachers comes from the need to overcome the students lack of active interest, and desire to learn the material.


This may or may not be true however. Certainly teachers do complain about kids that are discipline problems but what is the actual time spent dealing with them? Also, what % of the kids are the discipline problems? A teacher might spend a lot of time dealing with dispipline but it may only be on a small portion of the total number of students. One single student can easliy disrupt a class of 30. If that is the case then this all seems like a pretty massive system to deal with a small % of students.

Quote:
Luckily, we already know how to motivate adults. Our culture runs on it, and it is a system with natural checks and balances, so it's self regulating: $Money$


Maslow's studies found that money is actually a very poor long term motivator. It works in a very short term but as time progresses performing an act for money loses it's "value". This is why we have people in seemingly well paying jobs that still quit those jobs.

In a setting like a school I think you'd find that these "rewards" for good performance would be considered an entitlement and people would demand them regardless of their performance level. That may not happen immediately but with a few years you'd have parents suing the school because they didn't get their check. Parents have been known to argue over Johhny getting a C+ in a class instead of a B- because it keeps Johnny off of the honor roll. What happens when that C+ means there is no $2000 check in the mail?

Quote:
Now we're back to motivation again. Who is motivated to fund something which we are reasonably sure will improve society and help our kids?

This one's easy: We are. We the parents, we the corporations, we the government, we the civilization. All benefit from this change.


This may all be true enough too but you didn't specify where the money would come from. Is there an implicit assumption here that people would be willing to have their taxes increased to pay into these trusts? You are talking about a change to the system that isn't going to show any tangible results for 8-12 years. You could make a case that the kids would be better educated at that future point (assuming it all works as you outlined..) so they'd earn more, be more productive, etc.. and the government would be able to take the increased tax revenue and use that but the government isn't going to see that increase for a decade or two. How is it paid for in the mean time?

Another side issue and possible result of all of this would also be an increased inflation rate. This is the same issue that has to be dealt with with the whole "living wage" idea. If your idea was implemented and worked those future workers would be able to demand a higher wage. That increases the cost to business as an employer which gets passed on in higher costs for teh end product to the consumer. Since they also are paid at a higher rate other businesses can increase their prices without suffering a loss in business. In the end the net increase in wages is usually offset by a proportional increase in expenses so there is no net gain for the worker.

I'm not saying that a system as you propose can't work. It does set in motion a whole chain of events though and each of the steps in that chain would have to be looked at.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 01:46 pm
Re: A proposal for education reform in the US
Hi Fishin,

Thanks for the feedback...

fishin' wrote:
This may or may not be true however. Certainly teachers do complain about kids that are discipline problems but what is the actual time spent dealing with them? Also, what % of the kids are the discipline problems? A teacher might spend a lot of time dealing with dispipline but it may only be on a small portion of the total number of students. One single student can easliy disrupt a class of 30. If that is the case then this all seems like a pretty massive system to deal with a small % of students.


One of the interesting effects of the type of change I'm proposing is that it will have the greatest impact in school districts with the lowest income levels. And I would suggest that it's in exactly these areas where the greatest challenges to education are felt.

Also, I'm not just hoping to affect those students who are being a discipline problem, but also those who are simply in a malaise due to social pressures which overwhelm education. My feeling is that with active parent participation, kids will begin to be more confident in themselves, and that this will benefit their social success as they go through their early teens.

fishin' wrote:
Maslow's studies found that money is actually a very poor long term motivator. It works in a very short term but as time progresses performing an act for money loses it's "value". This is why we have people in seemingly well paying jobs that still quit those jobs.


I think those studies noted a difference between making a "lot" of money, and making "enough" money to help you survive. For someone who wants to buy a bigger yacht, it may not make a difference, but in those cases where money helps feed a family and pay rent, I bet you will find a lot of motivation.

fishin' wrote:
In a setting like a school I think you'd find that these "rewards" for good performance would be considered an entitlement and people would demand them regardless of their performance level. That may not happen immediately but with a few years you'd have parents suing the school because they didn't get their check. Parents have been known to argue over Johhny getting a C+ in a class instead of a B- because it keeps Johnny off of the honor roll. What happens when that C+ means there is no $2000 check in the mail?


Yes, and another good chance to improve the system. Educational standards will have to be put in place to define exactly what level of performance gets what reward. But standards of this type are what most people are saying we need already. This looks to me like more of an opportunity to improve things.

fishin' wrote:
This may all be true enough too but you didn't specify where the money would come from. Is there an implicit assumption here that people would be willing to have their taxes increased to pay into these trusts? You are talking about a change to the system that isn't going to show any tangible results for 8-12 years. You could make a case that the kids would be better educated at that future point (assuming it all works as you outlined..) so they'd earn more, be more productive, etc.. and the government would be able to take the increased tax revenue and use that but the government isn't going to see that increase for a decade or two. How is it paid for in the mean time?


Yes, you caught me. I was implying that corporations would somehow contribute to the process since the results directly benefit them, and I was implying that government funds which are currently used in inefficient ways might find more effective returns when diverted to this methodology.

However, you are correct. I have not yet defined the nuts and bolts of the financial process. I was hoping to get some validation of the theory before worrying about the details. Smile

fishin' wrote:
Another side issue and possible result of all of this would also be an increased inflation rate. This is the same issue that has to be dealt with with the whole "living wage" idea. If your idea was implemented and worked those future workers would be able to demand a higher wage. That increases the cost to business as an employer which gets passed on in higher costs for teh end product to the consumer. Since they also are paid at a higher rate other businesses can increase their prices without suffering a loss in business. In the end the net increase in wages is usually offset by a proportional increase in expenses so there is no net gain for the worker.


Possibly true, but I'm inclined to take the chance of this happening in light of a more educated population. After all, the same argument could have been made two hundred years ago, but things are better now than they were (unless you prefer an agrarian culture to a technological culture).

fishin' wrote:
I'm not saying that a system as you propose can't work. It does set in motion a whole chain of events though and each of the steps in that chain would have to be looked at.


Yes, I guess I would agree.

Thanks,
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 03:18 pm
Re: A proposal for education reform in the US
rosborne979 wrote:
One of the interesting effects of the type of change I'm proposing is that it will have the greatest impact in school districts with the lowest income levels. And I would suggest that it's in exactly these areas where the greatest challenges to education are felt.

Also, I'm not just hoping to affect those students who are being a discipline problem, but also those who are simply in a malaise due to social pressures which overwhelm education. My feeling is that with active parent participation, kids will begin to be more confident in themselves, and that this will benefit their social success as they go through their early teens.


Quote:
I think those studies noted a difference between making a "lot" of money, and making "enough" money to help you survive. For someone who wants to buy a bigger yacht, it may not make a difference, but in those cases where money helps feed a family and pay rent, I bet you will find a lot of motivation.


Ok, if we accept that both of these are true (I don't believe the Maslow comment is but for now we'll just say it is...) and we apply what we know right now, who are we targeting here? In most states the standard tests show something like 10-12% failure rates at the high school level. We could probably add in another 10% in the "just barely made it" group.

On the "economically disadvantaged" side you could probably use 20% as a rough number again for the portion of the general population that fits in that category.

But your outlined program pays out to everyone doesn't it? The program would pay cash to every student regardless of where they fit in the scheme of things. That means roughly 80% of the people that would be getting funds aren't likely to be a discipline problem to begin with and there is little motivation factor for them to do much better than they have been doing historically. That seems like an awful lot of overhead. If the numbers were reversed and the program carried 20% because it's targeting the other 80% it would be one thing. You have the reverse here though. You'd be paying everyone even though only 20% of them are the target.

Quote:
Yes, and another good chance to improve the system. Educational standards will have to be put in place to define exactly what level of performance gets what reward. But standards of this type are what most people are saying we need already. This looks to me like more of an opportunity to improve things.


Standards don't limit the feeling of entitlement. Look at Social Security and many of the other big systems for an examples. When they are implemented they start out with a pretty small and narrowly defined group as the targets. In short order they get expanded and as the number of people covered grows people start asking why they aren't getting in on the action. SS has become a sacred cow that no one can touch now and everyone expects to collect from it. When you get to the point where 3 kids in a classroom don't get that check you'd hear people cry that it isn't "fair" and rules and standards will be shoved aside in favor of "fair".

Quote:
Yes, you caught me. I was implying that corporations would somehow contribute to the process since the results directly benefit them, and I was implying that government funds which are currently used in inefficient ways might find more effective returns when diverted to this methodology.


Ok, fair enough. It'd be tough getting business to sign on but..

Quote:
Possibly true, but I'm inclined to take the chance of this happening in light of a more educated population. After all, the same argument could have been made two hundred years ago, but things are better now than they were (unless you prefer an agrarian culture to a technological culture).


Yep, in many ways things are better. And they did that without us having to pay kids to go to school! Wink

In some ways we aren't better off than we were 200 years ago. As recently as the 1960s the average family only had to have one parent working to survive. That's become a thing of the past though. Inflation was a tremendous problem in the 1960s as women entered the workforce enmasse and there was cash for families to spend. If you look at the inflation rates over the period from 1913 to 2003 the numbers don't look so good. Someone who made $5,000/year then would have to earn over $92,000/year now to maintain the same lifestyle. As the baby-boom generation heads for the Social Security trough another serious bout of inflation could easily sink the entire economy. I tend to see that as a huge risk. If the number of people getting ready to hit Social Security weren't so high it might be different but we have what we have.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 03:38 pm
Fishin,

You make some good points.

I guess I feel that the effects of this type of change would have a beneficial effect on a lot more than just the 10%-20% which are "problem students", but I don't have anything to back that up with.

I can see that this idea is going to be difficult to sell. There are too many assumptions which are not backed up by data. And there are too many unknown effects from a change like this.

How does one go about trying to make significant change in any type of large scale embedded social system?

I wonder if the way to go with this would be to select some communities and implement the change and then study the results over time. Maybe a philanthropic investment from Bill Gates or Larry Ellison could be used to make something like that happen.

Ok. More thinking to do. Thanks for the feedback Smile

Best Regards,
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 03:44 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
I can see that this idea is going to be difficult to sell. There are too many assumptions which are not backed up by data. And there are too many unknown effects from a change like this.

How does one go about trying to make significant change in any type of large scale embedded social system?


There are people that spend there whole lives dedicated to coming up with ways to sell programs just like this. Most of them drink heavily and go insane! Wink

It is in interesting idea. Selling it would be HARD though. Expand on it and fine tune!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 04:23 pm
Wow, Fishin', I'm impressed! I read the initial post, tried to think about how to even start to answer, then had to go. You've raised lots of really great points. I had a few more about actual motivations for learning, etc., but I see that became a tangent. It's a complicated problem, to be sure. (Understatement of the year!)
0 Replies
 
THe ReDHoRN
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2003 06:34 pm
THIS IS A PHILOSOPHY FORUM!!! Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 06:26 am
Hi, Rosborne, Good thread and I, of course, am still interested in the public school system in America.

First of all, we must agree that public schools are the corner stone of democracy because every child is given the opportunity to learn, regardless of race, color, creed, cultural background, etc. If we can consider this a given, then here is my philosophy about education.

Regardless of politics, administration, funding and the like, the teacher is the main component in the mix; consequently, hiring policies should be carefully reviewed and exercised. The superintendent of the system should NOT be the one to do the hiring. He is too far removed from the classroom environment

Rosborne, although money is a great motivator, it does not guarantee success in learning; It only increases the problems. I could give you and the folks on this thread, a thousand examples that I have observed, but I won't. Aren't ya glad? Smile

Standardized testing in American has gotten completely out of hand and is extremely expensive. It should be phased out. It puts a burden on students and teachers alike that inhibits growth.

Ever school wants a sports program, and often coaches must double in the classroom and that, I have found,does NOT work. Teaching often becomes secondary. Frankly, I would reconfigure the school day so that academics would be offered from 8:00 a.m. until 1:00 p.m. and then, the sports program would begin. For those students not interested in sports, that time could be used for pursuing special interests such as music ,art, or other creative programs.

Extending the school year has not worked, either. If it did, we would see evidence of it.

maslow's theory that a child cannot learn unless the basic drives are first met, is one to which I subscribe, but one to which I have no solutions because it centers on the home, and as much as we would like to change the home environment, I simply don't think the public schools can do that.

Ok. I'm finished. Razz
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 08:24 am
Go Letty!! It's weak of me to keep saying, "Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind," but that's exactly what I had in mind. Razz Especially about the teacher being central to the mix.

A few comments re: motivation:

I like Maslow, but I love Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He talks about "flow" experiences, where motivation comes from within rather than from without, and how that can be encouraged.

Excerpts from an interview with him:

Quote:
Explain what you mean by the flow experience, the title of your earlier book.

Flow describes the spontaneous, effortless experience you achieve when you have a close match between a high level of challenge and the skills you need to meet the challenge. Flow happens when a person is completely involved in the task, is concentrating very deeply, and knows moment by moment what the next steps should be. If you're playing music, you know what note will come next, and you know how to play that note. You have a goal and you are getting feedback. The experience is almost addictive and very rewarding.

Small children are in flow most of the time as they learn to walk and talk and other new things. They choose what to do and they match their skills with challenges. Unfortunately, they begin to lose this feeling once they go to school because they can't choose their goals and they can't choose the level at which they operate. They become increasingly passive. We find that in Europe and the United States, about 15 percent of adults really can't remember any experience that seems like flow. A similar proportion, about 15 percent, claim that they have the flow experience several times a day.

-snip-

What family characteristics are most conducive to inspiring a love of learning?

Modeling is the best strategy. If the kid grows up seeing that his parents and other adults have no interest in anything except making money, it's unlikely that he or she will learn that it's fun to study or learn new things.

It boils down to the essentials: support and challenge. By challenge I mean high expectations, high standards, allowing the child a lot of independence, exposing students to new opportunities whenever possible. Support means simply that the child feels that the family as a whole is interested in every member's welfare. If the mother comes home tired, the kids will notice it and try to help her and so forth.

When their families give them both support and challenge, children are more likely to choose harder subjects in high school, get better grades, end up in better colleges, and have higher self-esteem in college or after college. If they receive support only, the kids tend to be happy and feel better about themselves, but they're not necessarily ambitious. They don't try to advance in school. They don't take harder classes.

If the family offers a lot of challenges but does not provide support, then the kids tend to do well in school, but they're not very happy. And if they have neither support nor challenge from the family, then it's bad all around. Support and challenge impart different strengths. Challenge gives children vision and direction, focus and perseverance. Support gives the serenity that allows them freedom from worry and fear.

-snip-

Of all the students you interviewed, do any stand out as special examples?

Hundreds. One could write a shelf of novels on the lives of these kids.

There was a boy from Kansas City who, at age 12, was really in bad shape. He hated school. He had nothing that he liked. His self-esteem was low. He was in trouble with the school. We thought he would end up having serious trouble.

Then, in his senior year, when we looked at his booklet, we noticed that he had completely changed. He was happy. He felt strong self-esteem. He'd write that he was especially happy when he was looking for a valve or pipes at the hardware store or when he was carrying some rocks to his truck. When he was doing these things, he felt really positive. And we couldn't understand what he was talking about.

In the interviews, we asked him, What is this about looking for a valve or carrying rocks? He told us that he had a business building koi ponds. At some time in his junior year, he saw one of these Japanese fishponds in somebody's garden, and he became so fascinated that he built one in his own yard and one for his neighbor. And then he started building ponds commercially. At age 18, he bought a panel truck for his koi pond business. And he felt tremendous. He had to learn everything from plumbing to biology: how the fish live and what to feed them. He learned chemistry. He learned mathematics to understand water pressure and volume. Senior year he did great in school. He ended up going to a community college and taking technical courses. That is what can happen when a kid makes a connection between something inside and an opportunity outside. To me, that's how education should be. To educate means to lead out. And we don't lead kids out. We kind of stop them. To educate is to expose kids to many possibilities until they find a connection between what's really important to them and the world out there. And then we must nurture and cultivate that connection.


I LOVE that last part -- emphasis mine.

I went looking for a definition of "flow", but the whole interview is interesting and pertinent. I recommend it:

http://www.ascd.org/readingroom/edlead/0209/frame0209el.html

I do think it would be WONDERFUL to get parents more involved, and appreciate that aspect of your proposal, rosborne. I know of many innovative school programs that are doing just that, and I would be interested in examining what works and why, and then attempting to replicate those programs on a larger scale. I think that would address many of the core issues while also being much more cost effective.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 09:52 am
Nah, Sozo. You're anything but weak. Not familiar with Mihaly, I'm afraid. Interesting read, though. Have to think about it more. I do agree that modeling is extremely important, however.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 10:11 am
sozobe wrote:
I know of many innovative school programs that are doing just that, and I would be interested in examining what works and why, and then attempting to replicate those programs on a larger scale. I think that would address many of the core issues while also being much more cost effective.


I think this is a critical issue to get across to the public as well. There are many different things that work and many that don't work. But what does work doesn't work in every situation! I think we (the general public) get so wrapped up in trying to come up with a magic bullet to wipe out the entire problem we often don't realize that there are lots of small probelms that actually need lots of small answers.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 10:21 am
Thanks, Letty. Very Happy

And EXACTLY, Fishin'. I actually think that one of the largest problems in education is the continual re-invention of the wheel, tossing out an old system in favor of a brand-spankin'-new system and all of the upheavals that come with that. Obviously, staying current and evolving is necessary, but the paradigm shifts -- the focus on standardized testing now, for example -- often just impede the good teachers and don't offer anything substantial to the bad teachers. But magic bullets get votes, and they keep doin' it.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 10:21 am
Fishin',

I'll drink to that Wink

RedHorn,

Sorry for the cross-post. I just didn't know where to post this to get the most intelligent feedback (though I seem to have gotten some very thoughtful feedback so far).

Letty,

You say the schools can't change the nature of the home, but the whole point of my proposal is that it can.

You mention that money has caused more problems than it's solved, but is the money the problem, or is it just being used ineffectively? Can you think of any example in which money is being used to try to alter the home environment which kids base their behavior on?

Despite various interpretations of Maslow, it's clear (from my extreme examples in the original post) that money *is* a strong motivator. The only question is how little money does it take to motivate. Granted this is an important issue, but at least we should be able to agree on the basic theory here.

Soze,

Do you think that most kids will appreciate the esoteric value of "flow" as mentioned by Csikszentmihalyi when they enter their English class to discuss the latest book assignment which they haven't read?

I'm not trying to push the idea that money solves everything, it doesn't. But sometimes the right amount of money, used in the right way can make a big difference.

My continued thanks to all responders. The original argument seemed so logical to me that I find it very interesting to see where others disagree. Also, I think I've learned something about proposal writing and about presentation from this. I think I would do it differently in the future.

Best Regards,
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 10:40 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Soze,

Do you think that most kids will appreciate the esoteric value of "flow" as mentioned by Csikszentmihalyi when they enter their English class to discuss the latest book assignment which they haven't read?


The concept of "flow" may be esoteric but it has lots of practical applications. For example, Csikszentmihalyi talks about how group work is one way to foster a flow experience, and that there is very little of that in the high school experience. So the classroom is shaped to offer peak "flow" experiences WITHOUT needing to bring money into the equation.

It's not that a student comes into English class, is told to enter into a "flow" experience and explanation of what it is, and then left to his/ her own devices. The students themselves may never have any knowledge of the concept per se. It's what the teachers DO. Ask the students to come up with a rap based on the storyline of the book. Set up groups and talk about the themes -- race, gender roles, etc. Don't just have them sit there and gaze blankly.

Before you pooh-pooh that, I have had experience with bottom-of-the-barrel students, poor immigrants who read at the 1st grade level at age 18 and hated school their entire lives. I created flow experiences for them, without ever talking to them about the concept, made things challenging but rewarding, and they LOVED school. They positively glowed when they got their first hard-earned but deserved "A". This self-esteem carried over to other parts of their lives -- their personal relationships often improved. They found the wherewithal to quit gang involvement. They became better parents. (Many of them had children when they were very young.) They were probably in every way about the hardest group to reach you can imagine, but they were reached -- through creative teaching methods, not money.

If we are going for learning as having an instrinsic value, that will serve people well down the line, I would infinitely prefer that they ENJOY what they are doing for what it is, rather than for the money it will offer. That's a completely external motivation -- that's just sitting there and watching the clock and waiting until it's over so that you can pick up your paycheck. If it's a bad teacher, if it's not interesting, but enough is learned to get a passing test score, the money will be duly collected, but what will the long-term effect be? Studies have shown over and over again that this kind of "teaching to the test" education is not retained -- you remember it as long as you have to, and then it may stick or it may not.

By contrast, learning for the sake of learning, for its own enjoyment, leads to knowledge that sticks and is useful. (I'll try to find the studies about this on request.)
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 10:59 am
Soze, it sounds like you're saying that most teachers fail to teach in an effective way. Yet what I hear from the teachers I know, is that they are unable to teach the bulk of students who are too distracted by external events to want to learn.

I have several friends who are teachers. Each one of them comes from a different type of community. Some rural, some suburbs and others urban. They are all very motivated teachers, but all report similar problems, though to a different degree: Students with involved parents are easy to teach, and those without are difficult to impossible.

Maybe you were a gifted teacher, and the others could do better. I'm sure that's possible in many cases, but wouldn't it still make a huge difference if that great majority of students who are currently in a malaise were to suddently become actively motivated.

I agree that learning for the sake of learning is the *best* solution, but not everyone functions that way. Especially when they are under stressful environmental conditions which require their attention.

Actually, Maslow's pyramid of primary drives addresses this. His core thesis is that people deal with their most basic needs first (survival type things), and only when those are satisfied do they seek more esoteric rewards (like learning for enjoyment).

Best Regards,
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 11:15 am
This goes back to what Fishin' said about many smaller solutions rather than a magic bullet.

- Get parents involved. There are programs already doing this. Fund studies on what works and what doesn't work, then fund more programs.

- Attract and retain talented teachers. This has many, many sub-categories, such as raising salaries (I just came across a study that showed that 83% of Americans would favor raising teacher salaries even if it meant that their taxes would be raised), allowing greater autonomy, according more prestige (tricky one), etc., etc. I've said this many times, but it remains a striking real-world experience for me, that the most talented students in my graduate educational program went on to other professions rather than teaching. We all bristled at the limitations placed on teachers by bureaucracy. (And I can only imagine how many more limitations will be placed if serious money is involved.)

- Get role models involved in changing the culture of underachievement. Even if you manage to offer $5,000 a year, there are going to be the kids who are convinced they will be making 5 million a year in the NBA and won't put out the effort necessary. There are fundamental issues that need to be addressed that I don't think any reasonable amount of money would address for more than a year or two. The entitlement thing Fishin' mentioned.

That's just for starters. Smile
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 11:32 am
Oh, tutoring is another one, especially free and quality tutoring. One thing I keep coming up against when I think of this scenario is whether these parents who are not currently involved actually will suddenly spring into action even with this kind of money. I have my doubts.

The people we are talking about would be making more money if they could, but they aren't, for whatever reason. Maybe it's background, maybe it's opportunities, maybe it's lack of education, maybe it's the culture, maybe it's disabilities, maybe it's drug or alcohol addiction, maybe it's overwhelming personal lives... I just don't think $2,000-$5,000 will be enough to put a dent in all of that. They might love the idea, but it takes specific skills that they most likely don't have to follow through with it. (Note, this doesn't apply to everyone, of course. But kind of by definition, the ones it doesn't apply to are not the target -- the ones who do have the skills, lack of distractions, etc., are probably already involved in their kids' education.)

So, tutors can fill part of the gap left by insufficiently educated or otherwise unavailable parents.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 11:41 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Soze, it sounds like you're saying that most teachers fail to teach in an effective way. Yet what I hear from the teachers I know, is that they are unable to teach the bulk of students who are too distracted by external events to want to learn.


I read the comment totatly differently! lol

I know in my own case when I was in high school I HATED school. It wasn't that the assignmanets were to hard or anything other than no one had ever told me how what I was being expected to learn was going to be significant to my own goals in life.

I wanted to be an electrician. Not exactly a glamorous ambition for a high school kid but non the less that was what I wanted. So why the heck was I sitting in Geometry and Trig classes? I really struggled with them for 2 years because I saw absolutely no purpose in them. At the start of my junior year of high school the math teacher I had been assinged to told me there was no way I was going to pass his calc class. I was to lazy, to dumb, etc..

Anyway, a few weeks later I was having some problems so I stayed after class to ask for some help. While I was waiting I was playing with an electric motor that he had in the back of the classroom. He finally got freeded up and came back where I was to talk about my grades. Once we got talking and I told him what I didn't understand he started explaining it and began using the electric motor in his examples.

Oh my god! I understood how electric motors worked! THAT I knew! He applied the same formulas we had been going over in class but instead he used electrical terms. He plotted the mathmatical results on a graph and I'll be damned if we didn't end up with a sinewave representation of the voltage induced on the field coils of the motor! HOLY CRAP! It all made sense! Not only that but all of a sudden there WAS a reason for me to know this stuff! This math crap made electric motors run! Who knew? lol

The old codger in the tweed suit and bow tie that everyone laughed at had found a way to make the subject fit my "flow". (I got A's and B's in math and Physics my 2 last years of high school as result too!). He ended up being one of the best teachers I ever had. The other teachers were probably good teachers in their own right but they never got through to me.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 11:41 am
Re: culture of underachievement, I'm thinking of things like Russell Simmons and Def Poetry Jams.

http://www.hbo.com/defpoetry/

He's presenting young black kids with a model of writing poetry as something masculine, tough, and rewarding.
0 Replies
 
 

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