yeah of course the new covenant was made with the blood of Christ. but that doesn't mean that God forgets his promises of the old testament. did you not read the scriptures in romans? they are clear that God is not yet done with physical israel. also as i stated earlier, read the ot prophecy books especially malachi and zecheriah. both state that in the endtimes, when Christ comes again, he will save a remnant of the jews. also revelation shows this.
Evidently you do not recognize the difference between spiritual Israel and natural Israel.
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code." (Romans 2:28,29)
This is in line with God's promise to Jeremiah for a new covenant:
""Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ?'which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,' is the utterance of Jehovah." 33 "For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days," is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people."" (Jeremiah 3:31-35)
BTW, with regard to vs. 39: How many natural Jews are prepared to recognize Jesus as the Messiah - - - Really?
neo it's difficult to have a one sided debate. it's obvious that you totally disregarded the verses in romans that are clear that God isn't yet finished with physical israel. and its also obvious that you haven't read malachi, zecheriah, haggai and revelation. for if you have, you wouldn't be arguing right now. bc it's clear to anyone who can read that God will (one day) save a remnant of the physical jews. they are blinded right now, as paul said, bc its the time of the gentiles. but one day God will reveal himself to them and they will make Jesus their Savior. if you want to debate this first read those books and read the verses in romans i have already written out. then we will discuss.
and btw do you doubt that God can prepare the natural jews to accept Jesus---- really?
kate4christ03 wrote:. . . do you doubt that God can prepare the natural jews to accept Jesus---- really?
Daniel prophesied the end of the covenant in ch 9, vs. 27. You might wish to review it. The covenant with natural Israel ended with the conversion of Cornelius.
And if natural Jews as a nation rejected Jesus the first time, what makes you think more than a few isolated individuals would accept him now?
Check out the tribes in the seventh chapter of Revelation and compare them against the historical tribes. Do you still think natural Israel is being referred to?
neo did you not read the scriptures i gave in romans. paul said God wasn't finished with the natural jew, that they were just blinded right now bc its the time of the gentiles. but one day they will be saved. read those scriptures and then tell me rationally how you can still deny this.
Quote:And if natural Jews as a nation rejected Jesus the first time, what makes you think more than a few isolated individuals would accept him now?
just to be clear, are you implying that no natural jew can be saved? or ever will be?
12 tribes of israel....from their father jacob...genesis 49
12 tribes of israel......revelation 7
same 12 tribes....
read the scriptures i gave in romans
In Romans chapter 11, Paul likened the nation of Israel to an olive tree that is linked to "Jehovah's friend," the patriarch Abraham. (James 2:23) After that "friend" displayed his obedience, God told him: "By means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice." (Genesis 22:18) Because the majority of the natural Jews did not display the faith of their forefather Abraham and obey God, those unbelieving Israelites were lopped off the symbolic olive tree that was rooted in the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. Their places were taken by believing Gentiles, or non-Jews, so that the symbolic tree might have its full number of branches. Those taking the places of the natural Israelites became "Abraham's seed" as proselytes, or Israelites by adoption on the part of God, the One greater than Abraham. (Galatians 3:26-29) They became Israelites in a spiritual sense, that is, spiritual Israelites. That is why Paul went on to say:
"I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."?-Romans 11:25-27, American Standard Version.
read the scriptures i gave in romans
The apostle Paul shows that there would be only a limited number of "branches" in that spiritual olive tree. He points out that when one of the natural branches was broken off, the tree would not grow there another natural branch. Instead, a branch from a wild olive tree would be inserted in its place. So this transplanted wild olive branch would not increase the number of branches in the tree. The number of branches in the trunk of that tree would stay the same. Thus, when natural circumcised Jews were broken off from that spiritual tree because of unbelievingly rejecting Jesus Christ as the Principal Seed of the Greater Abraham, then non-Jews or Gentiles were engrafted in the places of those cut-off natural "branches."?-Rom. 11:11-32.
Those branches in that Abrahamic Covenant tree are not to be considered as natural Jews and foreign Gentiles. They are all to be considered as spiritual Israelites. Paul is the one that makes that point. After discussing the Abrahamic promise and the seed of Abraham, he goes on to say: "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."?-Gal. 3:8, 16, 26-29.
Quote:Are you certain?
Last chance.
the only difference is dan and manasseh. dan not being mentioned in revelation and manasseh not mentioned in genesis 49.
dan's tribe was removed because his tribe turned away from God and abandoned its land allotment (josh 19:40-41) and manasseh is joseph's son(gen 48) who's tribe is mentioned in revelation. There is no way that these 12 tribes are gentiles. These are the 12 tribes of israel. and there is no way that these are 144,000 of the most faithful of your church leaders. Nowhere in scripture are christian gentiles named under the 12 tribes of israel. Remember paul said "there is neither jew nor greek in Christ, we are one..."
and the reason i asked if you believe jews can't be saved is because you made this statement.....
Quote:And if natural Jews as a nation rejected Jesus the first time, what makes you think more than a few isolated individuals would accept him now
Quote:They became Israelites in a spiritual sense, that is, spiritual Israelites. That is why Paul went on to say:
"I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."?-Romans 11:25-27, American Standard Version.
no...are you not even reading the verse...paul is writing to the romans (gentile christians) and telling them not to be conceited bc they are spiritual israel and God has turned his back on the jews. he says to the christians..." that a hardening in part has befallen Israel" if he were speaking of spiritual israel(christians) why is he saying they are hardened (meaning that their hearts have rejected God)? and why does he specifically mention that this hardening(rejection) will continue UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles? and you are ignoring verse 28
"Concerning the gospel THEY ARE ENEMIES (can't be christians bc we aren't enemies of God) but CONCERNING ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the Father."
what does this mean...does this mean that all of the jews will be saved no matter what? that they can get salvation even if they reject CHrist and never have repentance of their sins?? NO
It means that as scripture states, there will be a time,(THe day of the Lord; Christ's second coming) when a remnant of the natural israel will see the Messiah coming out of the sky, recognize he is the one they pierced and they will weep with sorrow and remorse. and they will repent and God will forgive them and save them.
i want you to read Zech 12:10 and 13:1 also read chp 14(awesome chp on God saving a remnant of the jews) also as i just wrote above to neo, christians are never mentioned under 12 tribes of israel, we are grafted (adopted) into the salvation God gave the jews in the OT but we are not jew nor greek in Jesus. and revelation 7 specifically lists the 12 natural israeli tribes.
no...are you not even reading the verse...
I read and replied. I will check Zechariah and respond a little later. Thanks Kate.
kate4christ03 wrote: Quote:Are you certain?
Last chance.
the only difference is dan and manasseh. dan not being mentioned in revelation and manasseh not mentioned in genesis 49.
dan's tribe was removed because his tribe turned away from God and abandoned its land allotment (josh 19:40-41) and manasseh is joseph's son(gen 48) who's tribe is mentioned in revelation. There is no way that these 12 tribes are gentiles. These are the 12 tribes of israel. and there is no way that these are 144,000 of the most faithful of your church leaders. Nowhere in scripture are christian gentiles named under the 12 tribes of israel. Remember paul said "there is neither jew nor greek in Christ, we are one..."
Thanks for rechecking your source, kate. You should do it more often.
kate4christ03 wrote:and the reason i asked if you believe jews can't be saved is because you made this statement.....
Quote:And if natural Jews as a nation rejected Jesus the first time, what makes you think more than a few isolated individuals would accept him now
So why did you ask the question when my statement implied the answer?
Jews - Fleshly or Spiritual
Jesus will be ?'seen' by "those who pierced him." When Jesus was executed in 33 C.E., the Roman soldiers pierced him literally. The guilt of that murder was shared by the Jews, for Peter told some of these at Pentecost: "God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled." (Acts 2:5-11, 36; Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37.) Those Romans and Jews have now been dead for close to 2,000 years. So those who ?'pierce him' today must represent nations and peoples that display the same hateful attitude that was shown when Jesus was impaled. Jesus is no longer here on earth. But when opposers either actively persecute true Christians, who bear witness to Jesus, or passively consent to such treatment, it is just as though such opposers were ?'piercing' Jesus himself.?-Matthew 25:33, 41-46.
When the Christian apostle Peter said to those thousands of conscience-stricken Jews, "Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit," what did that mean? (Acts 2:37, 38) It meant that it was "that day" foretold in Zechariah 13:1. It meant that the "well" had been opened "to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for an abhorrent thing." Could there have been an "abhorrent thing" greater than that of instigating and sharing in the violent death of the Messiah, Jesus? Even such an "abhorrent thing" the water from that opened "well" could cleanse away. Peter gave assurance of this when he later said to Jews at the temple in Jerusalem:
"And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers also did. But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets [including Zechariah 12:10], that his Christ would suffer. Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for you, Jesus."?-Acts 3:17-20.
That was in the year 33 C.E., but even down to the year 56 C.E. the apostle Paul under inspiration pointed out that only a remnant of the natural, circumcised Jews looked to the "pierced through" Messiah, Jesus, in faith and availed themselves of the "well" of cleansing waters: "At the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness." (Romans 11:5; 9:27, 28) In the year 70 C.E. Jewish Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman legions and she ceased to be available for an application of Zechariah 13:1 to her literally, and her "house of David" became lost to identification by means of genealogical records, for these became lost.
A parallel fulfillment of Zechariah 13:1 must then refer to a restored remnant of spiritual Israelites, liberated from Babylon the Great and devoting themselves to the building up of Jehovah's pure worship at his spiritual temple.
This understanding is in harmony with several statements made in the Christian Greek Scriptures. (Matthew 21:42, 43; 22:9; 23:37, 38; Galatians 3:26-28; Ephesians 2:14-16; Colossians 2:13-15; 3:9-11)
"He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code."?-Rom. 2:28, 29.
hankarin wrote:
When the temple was destroyed in 70 CE by the Romans all Tribal records were lost/destroyed with the temple. Not one single person today claiming to be Jewish has any idea what Tribe he belongs to.
Nonsense.
hankarin wrote:So why should Revelation 7:4-8 be taken literally?
Doesn't the passage say that God is the One saying what tribe they are from?
Even if your earlier nonsense statement were true, the passage in Rev 7 doesn't say that the individuals are stating what tribe they are from.
Further, some understand the book of Revelation to contain some events related to the first century.
If you were a Jew alive in 70 AD, do you think that the day after the Temple was destroyed you would've forgotten what tribe you were from?
Quote:Thanks for rechecking your source, kate. You should do it more often.
there was no need to recheck, nor was i incorrect. But, I will apologize for assuming that you knew that one tribe had been replaced in the ot with another. I took for granted what i thought was common knowledge. and as i have stated before (and you choose to ignore) there is no way that these 144,000 are leaders and various other members from your church. This list is a list of natural israel, bc christians are never listed under specific tribes.
Quote:So why did you ask the question when my statement implied the answer?
because it's hard for me to comprehed that the man who teaches everyone will have a second chance of salvation, has a hard time believing that many jewish ppl can and will come to believe in Christ. pretty contradictory and totally unscriptural.
Quote:no...are you not even reading the verse...paul is writing to the romans (gentile christians) and telling them not to be conceited bc they are spiritual israel and God has turned his back on the jews. he says to the christians..." that a hardening in part has befallen Israel" if he were speaking of spiritual israel(christians) why is he saying they are hardened (meaning that their hearts have rejected God)? and why does he specifically mention that this hardening(rejection) will continue UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles? and you are ignoring verse 28
"Concerning the gospel THEY ARE ENEMIES (can't be christians bc we aren't enemies of God) but CONCERNING ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the Father."
what does this mean...does this mean that all of the jews will be saved no matter what? that they can get salvation even if they reject CHrist and never have repentance of their sins?? NO
It means that as scripture states, there will be a time,(THe day of the Lord; Christ's second coming) when a remnant of the natural israel will see the Messiah coming out of the sky, recognize he is the one they pierced and they will weep with sorrow and remorse. and they will repent and God will forgive them and save them.
i am posting this again because neither of you have responded. also i would like to point out that Zecheriah was not partially fulfilled on the day of pentacost, if anything some of joel (which peter preached of was) but no zecheriah. and as for acts 3:17-20, the scripture is clear that its concerning the prophecies of Christ's death, not his second coming. Two different events and as i said read malachi also... bc so far this hasn't occured:
Malachi 14
Im not going to write it out bc its long, but go and read this chp.
and Im in agreeance with RL on the list of tribes in Revelation.
kate4christ03 wrote: . . . .
Quote:So why did you ask the question when my statement implied the answer?
because it's hard for me to comprehed that the man who teaches everyone will have a second chance of salvation, has a hard time believing that many jewish ppl can and will come to believe in Christ. pretty contradictory and totally unscriptural.
But that is not what I have been saying about natural Jews. They have just as much opportunity as any one else.
Verbal claims are, as you say (nonsense).
Ask an orthodox Jew to prove it and you will see it is not nonsense. The records are the proof and they don't exist. Anything a Jew might say is just a claim and not provable. Thats the dilemma that they themselves are more aware of than you are.
kate4christ03 wrote:
there is no way that these 144,000 are leaders and various other members from your church.
Everyone who claims to be a Christian should recognize who these 144,000 individuals are. They include all the faithful men and women mentioned in the Greek Scriptures since Pentecost 33 CE(AD). (Acts 2:1-4) The Apostles, Jewish proselytes (Acts 8:26-40) and Gentile (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48) all annointed by holy spirit to rule in heaven with Christ. They are not "members of our church." That is nonsense.
They are annointed Christians. The "firstfruits" (not leftovers) that rule with Christ. (Revelation 14:1-4; 5:9, 10; 7:4; 20:4)
Other fellow Christians are to look to them as the ones Jehovah God has chosen to take the lead in aiding others to salvation. (Matthew 24:45-47)
Revelation 7:4 is in harmony with Luke 12:32 (small, fixed, literal).
Revelation 7:9 is in harmony with John 10:16 (many, open to all) Their future, according to Scripture, is to live forever in paradise on earth. (Isaiah 55:10, 11; 46:10, 11; 45:18; 9:6, 7; Psalm 72:7, 8; 37:9-11, 29; Matthew 6:9, 10; Revelarion 21:3-5)
