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Gun law paradox? discussion on illogical laws.

 
 
OGIONIK
 
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2007 07:58 am
If criminals are the ones using the guns illegally, why then do we pass more laws to restrict gun use when that (obviously) will fail.

I guess i could say the same for banning pitbull breeds.
I have a pitbull, i raised her like a princess and SHE IS COMPLETELY PASSIVE.

My friend has one of thosE golden retrievers. he treats it like **** and its worse than any pitbull/bully breed ive ever seen in my life.
But hey! when i come over and show it some affection he literally starts acting like a little kitten instead of a ravenous, rabid psychopath.

It should be common knowledge that criminals dont follow the laws.

It should be common knowledge that pitbull attacks are caused by people abusing those dogs, yet we pass these insane laws anyway?


How can we trust a government that does not follow logic, reason, and scientific knowledge?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,464 • Replies: 22
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2007 08:50 am
Ogionik--

I have a pit bull who has an unfortunate habit of attacking other dogs on little or no provocation. Some pit bulls are more aggressive than others, but the breed was developed by crossing bulldogs and terriers to produce a dog-fighting dog.

If a seventeen year old lives in a world where everyone is sure that guns are necessary for personal protection, that kid is going to get a gun.

Sixty years ago segregation of the races was not only the law of the land, but a state of mind among Americans. When the laws were changed, the mindset of the country changed as well.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2007 10:05 am
good point, but alas i think that has more negative implications than it does positive ones.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2007 02:50 pm
Re: Gun law paradox? discussion on illogical laws.
OGIONIK wrote:
How can we trust a government that does not follow logic, reason, and scientific knowledge?


You can't... However I would point out that "a government" doesn't exist on it's own. Government is people and, as everyone knows, people are fallible. IMO, the best we can do is hope those in positions of authority don't screw up and, if they do that we discover it and it gets corrected.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Aug, 2007 07:42 pm
I am hopeful that the Roberts USSC will make the corrections.
David
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flakker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 01:06 am
you live in a state founded by people paranoid their new country would be invaded or destabilised anytime soon.

you are surrounded by people who believe their "america" will stand the test of time and exist for another 10,000 years.

to the founding fathers they would be extremely glad to accept 10,000 casualties of gun violence a year if it guaranteed democracy will not be overthrown by its own governance.

i really dont see a military coup happening soon but i do not believe america will last 10,000 years without an armed populace.
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OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 06:41 pm
Too many people ( mostly supporters of authoritarianism and of collectivism )
believe that if the wolves are raiding and devouring the sheep,
the answer to the problem is to pull the teeth from the mouths of the sheep.

David
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 06:46 pm
guns don't kill people
bullets kill people
people pull triggers that let bullets kill people
morons blame guns
morons blame triggers.
I blame bullets
let's unite in banning bullets
keep your guns.
(I also blame fuckin*g morons who think that carry a gun protects them from life)
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 06:50 pm
dyslexia wrote:
guns don't kill people
bullets kill people
people pull triggers that let bullets kill people
morons blame guns
morons blame triggers.
I blame bullets
let's unite in banning bullets
keep your guns.
(I also blame *****g morons who think that carry a gun protects them from life)

No, no, no.
U don 't UNDERSTAND.
Carrying guns does not protect u from life, it protects u from death.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 08:08 pm
Out of curiosity David, I have a number of questions (all related) if you don't mind :

1. How many times have you had to pull your firearm out in defense of your life or someone elses?
2. What about any of your friends - how many times have they had to pull it out in defense?
3. How many times have you actually had to shoot at someone?
4. Have you met anyone that has had to do any of the above?
5. Have you, or any of your friends (% would be good) received any training in Law (regarding when to you can and can't use the firearm, with differing scenarios of what will constitute murder in your State etc), and what percentage?
6. Have you done any crisis response training? What about anyone you know?
7. Have you, or any of your friends, received instruction on shooting from a qualified instructor? (not everyone is going to shoot naturally, especially with pistols)
8. Do all the people you know regularly attend a shooting range to keep their accuracy up to date?
9. Do you know how far you can accurately shoot a pistol to. What about others?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 08:22 pm
Last Sunday night, I was at my cabin in the middle of no-f--king-where, when someone drove in at 4:30 AM.

I have a magnet in the road that sounds an alarm about 10 seconds before the can see my place.

They scared the **** out of me. Fortunately they turned around and left - likely they didn't intend to find anyone at home - but I was happy to have Mr. Browning at my side.

What amazes me are those that are unwilling to defend themselves. True sheep.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 09:32 pm
"... Cast your fate to the winds... la da da, ... la da da..."
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 09:35 pm
John Moses Browning was, INDEED, a major creative genius,
and most prolific.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 10:07 pm
vikorr wrote:
Out of curiosity David, I have a number of questions (all related) if you don't mind :

Quote:
1. How many times have you had to pull your firearm out in defense of your life or someone elses?

Once.


Quote:
2. What about any of your friends - how many times have they had to pull it out in defense?

Too many friends and too many of their lifetimes' of experience to count.


Quote:
3. How many times have you actually had to shoot at someone?

I did not; it did not prove to be necessary.
The folks who shot at my car fled the scene when thay saw that I had
a shiny silver colored revolver ( at night ); .44 special in stainless steel mirror; good for werewolves too.
These guns have been recommended for their intimidation factor,
particularly at night.



Quote:
4. Have you met anyone that has had to do any of the above?

Yes.


Quote:
5. Have you, or any of your friends (% would be good) received any training in Law
(regarding when to you can and can't use the firearm, with differing
scenarios of what will constitute murder in your State etc), and what percentage?

Yes;
I do not relate to my friends as A STATISTICIAN.
Some of them have.


Quote:
6. Have you done any crisis response training? What about anyone you know?

Yes and yes


Quote:
7. Have you, or any of your friends, received instruction on shooting from a qualified instructor?
(not everyone is going to shoot naturally, especially with pistols)

Yes and yes again


Quote:
8. Do all the people you know regularly attend a shooting range to keep their accuracy up to date?

Of course not; I stopped going when I was confined to the hospital,
and confined to my home, after instances of abdominal surgery.

Quote:

9. Do you know how far you can accurately shoot a pistol to.

I never ran that test.
However, I 'd NOT engage a target defensively beyond point blank range,
unless he were charging at me.
Then, I 'd fire one or two .44 caliber warning shots into his intestines.
I have no interest in long distance fire fights.




Quote:

What about others?

There r 6 billion others; some of them probably know.
David
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:52 am
Thanks for the responses. It's good to know Smile
0 Replies
 
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 02:45 am
Gun laws seem to work more so than they limit in what I consider my part of the world. As in, home.

This gives us more time to worry about stabbings and getting run down by a stolen vehicle. :wink:

I think having a lot of guns anywhere is just asking for trouble, not preventing it and not making the world any 'freer or safer'.

Seems like common sense to me. Live and breathe paranoia, you'll reap the benefits.

Instead, a person can be working for something positive.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 06:55 am
mushypancakes wrote:
Gun laws seem to work more so than they limit in what I consider my part of the world. As in, home.

This gives us more time to worry about stabbings and getting run down by a stolen vehicle. :wink:

I think having a lot of guns anywhere is just asking for trouble, not preventing it and not making the world any 'freer or safer'.

Seems like common sense to me. Live and breathe paranoia, you'll reap the benefits.

Instead, a person can be working for something positive.

U do not seem to be aware of the history of government in America.

When the English Monarchy was thrown out,
we had the choice of doing whatever we wanted, politically.
We did.
Following the precepts of John Locke,
we created government here, granting it certain powers.
We were very suspicious and distrustful of government,
having recently gone to a lot of trouble to get rid of one.

We were very STINGY, frugal, selfish, tightfisted, and uncharitable,
in the amount of power that we granted to the newly created government,
being aware that personal liberty and government power are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.
Accordingly, we were acutely aware that the more power that we granted
to the new government that we were creating, the LESS personal freedom we 'd have for ourselves.
The American Revolution was all about getting more PERSONAL FREEDOM.

When we were creating the new government,
we were very aware that it might become necessary
to overthrow that one too, if in time, it became too powerful, if it grabbed power.
This possible future need was discussed a great deal, when government was being created.
Accordingly, we certainly DID NOT grant government
the power to disarm us;
( we were like realty owners, hiring a property manager, as our employee, whom we did NOT trust ).

Knowing of the tendency of government to grab more power, over time,
we made a particular point of putting control of guns beyond the reach
of government, along with a few other things,
e.g., freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion,
freedom from intrusion into our homes ( without a judicial warrant ),
freedom from torture, among other things.

In studying the history and jurisprudential development of the right to keep and bear arms,
it should be borne in mind that when the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were enacted,
during the 17OOs, there were NO POLICE anywhere in the USA,
nor had police existed in Colonial America, nor in England.

The concept of a police force first BEGAN during the 18OOs (both in America and in England).
Accordingly, during the 17OOs, if one were attacked by a violent criminal,
a predatory animal, or madman, it was as imperative as it was paradigmatic that he have the means
to handle the situation himself,
and this was the world that the Founding Fathers knew
when they drew the social and political contract that is the US Constitution,
the Supreme Law of the Land.


Many people believe that the Supreme Law of the Land
shud be changed in many different ways. You believe that
we shud all be docile and helpless citizens like Kitty Genovese and Reginald Denny,
but changes must be accomplished by the legitimate amending process.

Until thay are abrogated, our constitutional rights remain intact.

U may prefer to be docile and helpless subjects,
in your part of the world, Mushy
. Good luck with that.

If I ever decide to become a violent, predatory criminal,
I know that I will be much safer in your part of the world.
David
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 08:07 am
IMO gun control is summed up like this

"They cannot guarantee absolute protection, but they sure can guarantee absolute helplessness"
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:30 pm
OGIONIK wrote:
IMO gun control is summed up like this

"They cannot guarantee absolute protection, but they sure can guarantee absolute helplessness"

Yes ( of the victims who have chosen to obey the law ).


If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,

HOW can government convince them to OBEY " gun control " laws ?
0 Replies
 
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 04:45 pm
David,

We simply disagree. It's not about me not understanding history or a case of Canadians being "docile and helpless".

That is what I find to be a sad statement, on your part.
0 Replies
 
 

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