I can't date you because you're not

Out of context...
It sounds very good and it is absolutely a beautiful passage. But you take it out of context. Paul is talking about the gifts that God has given the Church - the body of Christ. He is saying if we use these gifts and have not love then those gifts and how we use them mean nothing.

In 2 Corinthians 6: 14 Paul also says:

14) Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

So in using Paul as your guide for love - even he has a limit to how far a Christian can love an unbeliever. Being "unequally yoked" or married - is just very difficult. He advises against it. Not that Paul is the end all be all - but he was a wonderful example of expending himself for others. My ultimate example would be Christ.

In our discussion however, the "love passage" cannot apply. But that being said...Paul also writes in Romans 12:

3) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4) For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5) so we, though many,are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6) Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7) if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8) the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Marks of the True Christian
9) Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10)Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11) Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12) Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13) Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
14) Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15) Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16) Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17) Repay no one evil for evil, butgive thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18) If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20) To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." 21) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

This passage absolutely does apply. Though my beliefs advise against marrying someone of a different belief than myself...It does wholeheartedly encourage me to love others the best I can. And I do. But I can love them and not advise my children to marry them. I can serve them as God has called me to. This passage dear sir is absolutely what my beliefs are about...and they serve me and my children very well....

Respectfully yours...

First... please don't call me "sir". It sounds very cold... people around here call me "ebrown" or "brown" (or sometimes traitor (but only my closest friends here seem call me this and you may not want to use such an intimate term with someone you just met)).

When religion is about love, the bad parts of religion go away and we are left with the positive. Jesus had love at the core of his ministry and his message. It is not surprising that he rejected, and was rejected by, the religious people he met.

I disagree with you about what you are calling "the love passage". I don't think I am taking it out of context at all. It makes a very bold proclamation... that of faith, hope and love the most important is thing is love.

Jesus himself agreed with the apostle Paul on this.



Love-- for God and for our fellow man is at the core of Christianity.

Don't fall into the error of thinking Love for God is the same as religion. It is very clearly not as James points out...



I have found that most people who call themselves Christians today completely miss the power of the Christian message.

I would never use Paul as my guide for love. Good luck to you if you do.

Let me step away from my theolological discussion and make this point.

The most important part of the human experience is our relationships.

Religion should open you to relationships and strengthen them. When religion divides you from people, either by making you distrust or judge them, or by restricting the relationship you can have with them, it takes away from your humanity.

My wife and I are different religions, and this is great. My wife chooses to be with me because of me, not because of my religion. My children are free to choose the religion that means the most to them. I am not going to let this distract us from what is most important in life. I say this with confidence because I love them for them, not for their religion.

There are things in each religion that emphasize acceptance and unconditional love and sharing. These are the things that I want to focus on.

That is all I am saying.

How much of Paul's writing do you know? You might agree with at least half of it. What don't you like about the passage I posted?

I spent a lot of time listening to paulist priests, many of whom I respected, Elwood Kaiser, for example. Paul himself, I learned sometime later, was in outer space relative to me.

I've no interest in chasing quotes.

I understand you don't agree with me, check.

Did not mean to seem cold...I was trying
to be respectful...

I never said anything about religion. I am talking about my faith. My beliefs. They are in fact dug deep in the act of loving well....just as my God loves well. Just as Christ loved so much that he sacrificed his own life. Just as I am called to love others. But...when it comes to beliefs...there are different ones.

And how I believe very much requires me to consider wisely whom I marry - since when I make a vow - I absolutely intend to keep it. I do not want to get 5 years into marriage and find that we have irreconcilable differences that didn't really matter when we were in the throws of passion - after all - we loved each other - but then come to find out that I cannot agree with the person I vowed to love and honor. So - I have two routes...I can divorce and break my vow. Or I can stay and be miserable and seek to love the best I can in a very difficult situation. So...if my faith and my beliefs are so important to me and I raise my children this way...why would I not want to spare them the heartache of the possibility of these situations? It is what any parent that loves their child would do. I will not and cannot throw out my beliefs. So this is what is left...Now - I teach my children to love. I teach them discernment, I teach them to think about how their actions affect others....but I will not teach them to take to spouse someone who has major differences in their beliefs.

And when I say you are taking it out of context I mean that you have applied a passage that was originally intended for the gifts given to the body of Christ. I am careful to use the scripture in context. Mainly because so many try to twist it to use for their own emphasis. I do not want to be guilty of that. 1 Corinthians 13 is a very apt description of how love should be...but I cannot disassociate it with 2 Cor. 6:14 - the Bible does not contradict itself. It all interlaces and goes hand in hand...and you are absolutely right...If you believe only in the rituals of the Church you have greatly missed the message Christ died for...but then caring for widows and orphans and advising your children to love an unbeliever as Christ loves the church but not to marry an unbeliever are not the same things....they just aren't.

I have enjoyed our conversation...it is always a good thing to be able to voice your beliefs...thank you very much ebrown. Rest well...I must go to sleep for I have three children I must wake up and take fishing!

Why, though? Is it for the same basic reasons that jespah stated she'd prefer someone of the same ethnicity/religion: to keep the line/tradition going?

Mismi,

There are two questions raised in our conversation. Who you or I choose to marry is one thing... of course choice of a mate is a very personal thing and the factors that go into this decision are for each person to decide.

I was questioning your assertion that you would build a wall between you and your kids if they choose to marry someone of a different religion.

Since marriage is a personal thing... it is up to your kids to decide who they will marry. I will never build a wall between me and my kids for this decision.

It is much more important that my kids marry someone they love... someone who will treat them with respect and work to build a loving family. This seems far more important to me than how they worship God. Of course, since we agreed that this is a personal decision that our kids will have to make themselves, I don't have control of this. However, I will love and support them no matter who they choose.

Love should be more important than faith- especially when it comes to ones children.

What conclusion, are you trying to draw?

ebrown,

I said I would support and love my children the best way I know how - even if they choose to go against how I raise them. I cannot help but think that your belief system is based in human emotion - love is an amazing thing. But it is fallible and love though wonderful and the glue that holds so many things together - is not enough. There are other things that come into play as far as a marriage is concerned. But I think I understand now where your hangup is.

Yes - there will be a wall of sorts...not one that I build but one that is erected nevertheless if my children choose to marry someone so outside of their faith. You may believe it is one and the same God the Muslims and the Christians worship - but it is not. And as much as I will want to allow my children to prosper in their marriage I will struggle if they chose to believe as the Muslims, or Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses - or Atheist do. It is a simple fact. Now...I know this makes me unenlightened and intolerant in your eyes. That is okay - I am use to it these days.

The reason I will struggle is...if I believe scripture and the Holy Bible as it is written - and I do - there is ONE way to God and that way is through the blood of Jesus Christ. I will try to love my daughter in laws the very best that I can - even if they are of a different faith...but when I believe that we can only be ushered into the presence of God by being sorry for all the wrong things we have done and repenting of them before the Lord - believing that his son died for those sins so that God could allow us into heaven because of Jesus' atonement for that sin. Then it does cause me worry for my children's eternal well-being. Now if you don't believe the way I do - then this is a bunch of spititual tripe and it will seem assinine to you. And that is fine. It is (thank God) a free country based on freedom of religion. My faith is not exclusive - anyone is free and encouraged to be forgiven of their sins and come before God as a child through the acceptance and belief in his son, and his death and resurrection. And we are encouraged to love and give ourselves to all...even to those who do not believe as we do. There are many - and I see it and am embarrassed many times - that are cruel and critical when attempting to share this doctrine. I will not be cruel...I will not put others down purposely - but if I deny what I so strongly believe - well - it just can't be done.

Please suffice it to say - I love my children and God willing I will not be put in the situation that places us in this position. But if I am - I do ask God for grace and love to be exactly what my sons and daughter-in-laws need me to be. I will love them the best I can and will serve them and others as I am called to - all the while praying that God will give us all the understanding we need to be ushered into his presence one day.

I am afraid I am not clever enough to make it any more understandable for you ebrown. As I have said many times here...sometimes things just are what they are...I, like you, love my children the best way I know how - given my own belief system and understanding. I know it is not how you love your children. You have given them unfettered and open ended allowance which comes from your own belief system. We pass on to our children what we strongly believe. And that is okay...we just don't believe the same thing...

I'm trying to understand your response before I draw a conclusion.

If you are going to have children, and you're Jewish, I personally believe that you should marry a person who is either Jewish or who would like to convert to Judaism for the sake of the religion, as opposed to the sake of marriage. I do believe that where children are involved, religion is important and where Judaism is involved I believe it to be most important.

If children are not involved, I still believe that religion is important because an element critical to a good marriage is compatability. Where individuals have a similar background, neighborhood, City, religion, education, college ( and even high school ), economic status, even ethnicity and race,
life together gels quickly and stays solidified for a much longer period of time than where there is little, if any, commonality.

So InfraBlue, in a nut shell, I agree with Jespah and would probably go beyond even that.

That's my opinion...

Well, in Holland, of course, with its so-called "pillarised" society, inter-religious marriage was taboo for many decades. Protestants did not marry Catholics; and neither would marry someone without religion, like a socialist. Even marriage within different Protestant denominations (Dutch Reformed and mainline Protestant, for example) was frowned upon.

It was an extension of how Protestants, Catholics and socialists would not go to the same sports club or watch the same TV channel. We even have an old saying, no longer used today: "Twee geloven op een kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen" - With two religions on a pillow, the devil sleeps in between.

All that is largely passed now, though. Unless you're Muslim I suppose (with the exclusion going both ways).

Thanks for obliging, Miller.

I have my own theory why there are a considerable number of Gentile young ladies that find Jewish young men attractive:

- They are comfortable and attracted to a family that would never use the "N" word. And, being Liberal is not something to be mocked.
- Jewish young men today enjoys Christmas as much as anyone else. The Gentile girl doesn't have to "give up" Christmas, as perhaps it was expected in prior decades. Any children wind up getting presents for two holidays in December.
- Jewish men are stereotyped (I personally believe it's true) to have no problem with intelligent, dynamic women.
- All sorts of positive stereotypes about Jewish men: good family men, don't usually drink to excess, ambitious, concerned.

The problem is there aren't enough secular Jewish males around for all Gentile girls that would want one.

And, in 50 years or so, they may have all been assimilated through marriage (except for the orthodox).

I have one other personal theory about Jewish men. Within the next few decades we will see many Jewish male/Asian American female marriages. The Asian woman has the advantage of marrying a Jewish male because she:
-Does not come from a society that has a history of anti-Semitism. (Her family won't have one or more anti-Semites.)
-Likely has no one in her family that is concerned whether Jews killed Christ.
-Seems to have a genetic predisposition to remain slim.
-Lets the Jewish guy have the last word in an argument (probably a canard, but it is what many Jewish males believe).
-Is believed to have genes for long life and intelligence that will be passed on to children.
-Cooks Asian cuisine.

The above reflects my own opinion, based on my own observations. Naturally, I could be wrong in one, or all of the above thoughts.

Based on what I've seen, I doubt that it's CONSIDERABLE...

Not "considerable" on one college campus, but add all the campuses together and it might be considerable. Add all the inter-faith marriages that resulted from meeting at work, and it might be considerable.

"Considerable" is meant from the Jewish side of the fence, meaning over 50% of young Jews are marrying outside the faith. I naturally didn't mean 50% of Christians (I suspect there are more Christians in this country than Jews, but I could be wrong. And, if we use the term "Jewish," which means like a Jew, but not quite a Jew (like windyish, sort of windy, but not quite windy), many Christians are quite Jewish in their thinking, a la neurosis, ambition, and many other positive and negative stereotypes.)

So, to effect an inter-faith marriage rate of over 50%, among Jews, there are considerable Gentile young ladies that find young men of the Hebrew persuasion attractive.

Wikipedia.com

Uh, no. Now we're just changing definitions. If you must make a word, say (Gawd) Jew-like. But not Jewish. That's a word with a very specific meaning and what you stated above ain't it. Thanks.